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Author Topic: A New Kind of Pin  (Read 14687 times)

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jonts26

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A New Kind of Pin
« on: January 08, 2013, 01:16:43 am »
+27

I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. -J. Robert Oppenheimer


Masquerade? Discard attacks? Don't need them. What if I told you there exists a pin which requires you to increase your opponent's hand size? Crazy? Perhaps. True? Absolutely. Practical? Probably not.

The key cards are Possession, Forge, and Governor/Council room. A King's Court won't hurt either. Can you find it? Spoilers for those who want to try on their own.

The pin works by a quirky little rule interaction (HT: greatexpectations for pointing it out to me). A new 5 card hand is drawn during the clean-up phase. Cards trashed while possessed don't return until after your turn, AFTER you've drawn your 5 card hand. See it now? The idea is simple. Have your opponent draw his entire deck with Governor/Council room (that's where KC comes in handy). One of his cards has to be a Forge. Play possession. Forge away his entire deck. During his possessed clean up phase, he can only draw Forge. That's the only card in his deck. Only after clean-up is the rest of his deck returned to him. At best he can gain 2 Coppers.

And now next time you see a board of KC, Governor, Forge, Possession you will be ready to destroy someone's world.
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michaeljb

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 01:20:52 am »
0

Draw their whole deck with your Governors/CRs, play their Forge, trash everything. In their cleanup, they draw just a Forge. The rest of their "trashed" cards go to their discard pile after cleanup.

edit: wooo got it
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 01:43:46 am »
0

Wow! That's what I'm talking about. If I ever pull that off, I will be impressed. Although, I imagine my opponent would have a few not-so-kind words of wisdom to offer me.
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dondon151

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 01:52:15 am »
0

I almost suggested Count instead of Forge, but an opponent can still gain Duchies on his gimped turn.
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Titandrake

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 02:16:22 am »
0

Tested it on Iso. It unfortunately doesn't work. I think it's because of Iso doing the rules wrong instead of the pin not working. Although the log says what the possessed player draws before saying what trashed cards are discarded, the possessed player still draws a full hand of 5.

Will edit in log later.

EDIT: Nevermind, it works. The problem was that I had played Governors that the possessed player had. The actions played that turn don't get trashed, so they get discarded on time.

See the last couple turns of http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/07/game-20130107-232546-f9d3dba7.html.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 02:26:14 am by Titandrake »
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Davio

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 02:24:50 am »
+1

Gotta remember this for the 1 in a gazillion chance that I actually happen across this kingdom, waiting to spring the trap until my opponent gets a Forge.  ;D
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Robz888

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 02:27:54 am »
+1

This just raises the question... how many other undiscovered pins are lurking out there in the darkness? Scary stuff.
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dondon151

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 02:36:16 am »
+2

I also suppose this isn't always a true pin even when the conditions are met, because an opponent can just buy Coppers, Forge nothing -> Copper and bloat up his deck until it can no longer be drawn by opponent Governors or CRs.
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olneyce

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 02:38:00 am »
0

Awesome.  Love to see crazy stuff like this.
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olneyce

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 02:40:06 am »
0

I also suppose this isn't always a true pin even when the conditions are met, because an opponent can just buy Coppers, Forge nothing -> Copper and bloat up his deck until it can no longer be drawn by opponent Governors or CRs.
True, though this pin has the advantage of letting you play your whole deck every turn as you enact it.  Seems like you should be able to win in a couple turns anyways.
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Davio

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 04:46:41 am »
0

I also suppose this isn't always a true pin even when the conditions are met, because an opponent can just buy Coppers, Forge nothing -> Copper and bloat up his deck until it can no longer be drawn by opponent Governors or CRs.
Well, just throw an Ambassador and a Village in there to make the kingdom even more specific.
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werothegreat

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 08:23:56 am »
0

I never buy Forge anyway, so I guess I'm safe.
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Davio

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 08:31:30 am »
+1

I never buy Forge anyway, so I guess I'm safe.
I'll just Ambassador you one or Swindle your King's Court. :)
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 08:39:44 am »
0

I never buy Forge anyway, so I guess I'm safe.
I'll just Ambassador you one or Swindle your King's Court. :)

Hooray for Lighthouse.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 08:44:27 am »
+1

I never buy Forge anyway, so I guess I'm safe.
I'll just Ambassador you one or Swindle your King's Court. :)

Hooray for Lighthouse.
Hooray for Masquerade?
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 08:46:33 am »
0

I never buy Forge anyway, so I guess I'm safe.
I'll just Ambassador you one or Swindle your King's Court. :)

Hooray for Lighthouse.
Hooray for Masquerade?

So now we've got Forge, Possession, Governor, Ambassador, Lighthouse, and Masquerade in the same kingdom?
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GendoIkari

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2013, 09:06:42 am »
0

It's neat, but there's problems with it. Assuming that it takes maybe 10 or so turns to build the deck... by this time your opponent has at least 20 cards in his deck. (15 not in his hand already). Getting him to draw his entire deck with Governor and Council Room is all but impossible; KC does indeed help, but you're still talking about building the type of deck that can get in 15 plays of Governor/Council Room per turn. This is quite a monster deck that should be winning quite easily without Possession.

The other problem is that you aren't guaranteed to be able to execute it every turn. Eventually you'll draw a hand that can't play out the combo; especially if you are buying victory cards or money on your turns.

Finally, any VP your opponent gets before you get the combo going will remain his. KC/Masq is so powerful because even if your opponent gets 7 Provinces before you get it going; you still win once it's going.

All that said, it is quite neat!
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 09:13:38 am »
0

One of the brutal things about the classic kc/goons/masq pin is that you have a long time to build it.  Even if your opponent has 7 Colonies and 7 Provinces, you will destroy their entire deck and so can win the game with just your VP tokens.  This pin does not destroy your opponent's deck, and so it needs to be done before they earn a majority of the available points.
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greatexpectations

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2013, 12:21:43 pm »
+2

a few of you are taking this a little too seriously. no one is suggesting that this is going to replace kc/goons/masq, just that it is a new way to go about pinning someone. basically, it is a different presentation for one of our famous edge case puzzles. but even on a "failed" turn, this pin could easily leave someone with just a 2-3 card hand.

this sort of came about because of a game i played this weekend. i went for a golden deck against a very low level player and they went for a possession engine. they didn't realize that trashing the province gave me points, but what i didn't realize was that them trashing my province interrupted my golden deck by preventing me from hitting $8 to buy another province.

so while a real life application of this is going to be even more rare than the kc/goons/masq pin, the general concept of drawing before possession returns trashed cards could still have tactical effects on the occasional game.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2013, 12:22:15 pm »
0

Nice work Jonts, clever
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 12:44:38 pm »
0

a few of you are taking this a little too seriously. no one is suggesting that this is going to replace kc/goons/masq, just that it is a new way to go about pinning someone. basically, it is a different presentation for one of our famous edge case puzzles. but even on a "failed" turn, this pin could easily leave someone with just a 2-3 card hand.

this sort of came about because of a game i played this weekend. i went for a golden deck against a very low level player and they went for a possession engine. they didn't realize that trashing the province gave me points, but what i didn't realize was that them trashing my province interrupted my golden deck by preventing me from hitting $8 to buy another province.

so while a real life application of this is going to be even more rare than the kc/goons/masq pin, the general concept of drawing before possession returns trashed cards could still have tactical effects on the occasional game.

So, Golden Deck would have put you at Bishop-Gold-Silver-Silver-Province, right?  If they possess you and trash your Province, you end up with just Bishop-Gold-Silver-Silver in hand on the next turn, with that Province in the discard.  The easy fix here is to Bishop a Silver and buy a Gold.  Any time you start with your Province in the discard, you can just Bishop and buy back treasure.  It's a slight hiccup, but not huge.
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greatexpectations

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 12:56:35 pm »
0

So, Golden Deck would have put you at Bishop-Gold-Silver-Silver-Province, right?  If they possess you and trash your Province, you end up with just Bishop-Gold-Silver-Silver in hand on the next turn, with that Province in the discard.  The easy fix here is to Bishop a Silver and buy a Gold.  Any time you start with your Province in the discard, you can just Bishop and buy back treasure.  It's a slight hiccup, but not huge.

yes and no? the way it happened in that game i played was that i built my deck towards bishop/gold/gold/copper/province. the reasoning for that being that A. though i set it up quite fast i didn't do it via chapel/bishop and so i took what i had and B. this forces my opponent to trash my province if they want to be able to buy one, netting less vp for them.

but as it happens, i do think that it is a significant hiccup. first off, instead of trashing a province every turn i am doing one every two turns. this lengthens the game quite a bit, giving the opponent to catch up via duchies, VP chips, or a megaturn. furthermore, if i buy a gold and they play 2+ possessions i lose the ability to have that same 5 card hand. i am still in decent shape, but i lose that firm control over the end game.  all of which to say, the golden deck is still in decent shape, but it can't quite cruise along as easily as it normally can.
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GendoIkari

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 01:02:35 pm »
+1

a few of you are taking this a little too seriously.

You do realize what board this was posted on, right? ;D
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:03:50 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 02:37:37 pm »
0

So is Council Room the best enabler for this?  Because I rarely buy Forge in a Governor game.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 02:50:45 pm »
0

I would think governor would be easier as it gives you the action (and if you do have a swindler or an ambassador you can still give him the forge).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

jomini

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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 03:33:46 pm »
+2

There are several varieties of Possession pinning of which I am aware in addition to the forge case you can:
1. Draw their entire deck and generate a dead card hand - e.g. Kc/Governor them up to whole deck in hand - then use top decking or discarding to generate a 5 card green hand (e.g. Vault away 6 green cards, play a cantrip, end turn).
2. Similar to #1 set them up with only VP & actions that trash VP (e.g. Rats & Vineyards) or dead action combos (e.g. Smithy x7).
3. Kc/Chap (a much more common scenario than Forge) - yeah you may not be able to give them no cards, but putting all their better than copper treasure & useful actions into the discard works well. Very few decks have more than 12 really useful cards, particularly if you are wise about things like leaving all the villages & no terminals. When Kc/Chap is out, most people will be very kind and trash all the coppers anyways. Drawing from Kc, Chap, Green, and the odd crappy action makes for terrible hands.


A few other esoteric pins:
Masq/Cutpurse/Really strong engine. Have a way to gain coppers and get five of them into hand (e.g. Beggar, +buy, Iw, Haggler, etc.) play: Masq (pass a copper) -> Cutpurse (they discard a copper) -> Masq (pass a copper) -> Cutpurse (they discard a copper), repeat. Yeah you need a REALLY good engine and plenty of +action, but the important thing is to make sure that you swap their entire hand for Coppers and then Cutpurse them out (you can leave one copper as long as Poor House isn't out). Fails against Moat, Lighthouse, and durations (maybe), but it is fiendishly hard to stop the setup and it steals points - not trashes them.

Kc/B-crat/Masq/Wt/Engine: Like above, you want to masq over an Estate, B-crat it to deck top, and repeat. Kill the Silver flood with Wt. You can quite playing Masq once he has a single zero card hand thanks to the pin. Neither Masq nor Wt are strictly speaking required - you can just keep pushing back estates until he is B-crat pinned (but that is vulnerable to draw & deck discarding) Kc/Scheme/B-crat can be good if your opponent (poorly) skips out on using Kc/Scheme. Other options, like Apprentice, can work to kill Silvers.

Kc/Gov(Cr)/Minion/Cutpur : Draw all of both your decks, Cutpur him FIVE or more times, have him draw one more card, play minion for 4 cards. Play minions for Draw until you you have Cutpur'ed him another 3 times.

Kc/Gov(Cr)/Minion/B-Crat/Silver trashing: Like above, just B-Crat him 5 times, draw & trash silvers, have him draw one, minion for 4 cards, end turn.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 03:52:15 pm by jomini »
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 08:28:12 pm »
+1

I rarely buy Forge in a Governor game.

Wait, why? $7 cards in Governor games are great; you can snipe Provinces on your opponent's turn with them.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 08:42:57 pm »
0

I rarely buy Forge in a Governor game.

Wait, why? $7 cards in Governor games are great; you can snipe Provinces on your opponent's turn with them.

Presumably he'd buy either a Gold or a Governor while building towards a megaturn.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 08:46:45 pm »
0

I'd rather buy a Governor than a Forge.  With respect to megaturns, it's a double lab versus a curse.  The choice is clear.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2013, 01:01:13 am »
+1

Forge is amazing in Governor games. You are able to make your deck thinner and thus making it easier to pull off a Governor megaturn. You can clean out coppers and turn two silvers into one Gold. Plus it can be remolded into a Province when your opponent remodels. What's not to like about Forget in a Governor game. Yah, you lose a Governor buy for one turn, but you gain a lot in return.
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2013, 01:51:32 pm »
+1

Forge is amazing in Governor games. You are able to make your deck thinner and thus making it easier to pull off a Governor megaturn. You can clean out coppers and turn two silvers into one Gold. Plus it can be remolded into a Province when your opponent remodels. What's not to like about Forget in a Governor game. Yah, you lose a Governor buy for one turn, but you gain a lot in return.

Exactly!  If you are up by 2 provinces with 2 remaining, your opponent can easily lose if he attempts a remodel gold, remodel gold, duchy finish.

Plus you can use it for forge  province > province on your last mega turn to trash an extra province from the supply leaving them with no option to catch up. I think I'd get a forge in most governer games, especially those without extra buys.  (Forge silver, copper, copper, estate > governer early can be huge as well)
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 01:54:38 pm »
+1

Keep in mind that the question isn't just Forge vs not Forge... it's Forge vs King's Court. (Although the pin is theoretically possible without King's Court, it's extremely unlikely unless your opponent has a really thin deck to begin with.)
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Re: A New Kind of Pin
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 03:27:37 pm »
0

it's extremely unlikely unless your opponent has a really thin deck to begin with

As though they just used a bunch Governors and a Forge to clear out everything but Govs and Gold.
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