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[ashersky]

This is getting crazy.

I started this thread as a new category, but with the full intention of making sure the game filled by including "veterans."  I mean, I have a "veterans only" game coming up, and mcmcsalot is in the pool for that, and I do not consider him an f.ds mafia veteran.

A "newbie only" game that excludes veterans is a dream, I think, because we don't have nine new players to play.  Literally everyone has played at least one game.  So I think if there are new players that don't want to play with old players...then they don't want to play here anyway.

On the playground analogy...I take offense on behalf of Robz and Eevee (Eevee!) for being slotted into the bully roles here.  I think they are trying to help and welcome new players by wanting to play.  They aren't standing with arm crossed; they have arms open.

Forum mafia is first-come based.  If a game over fills, people generally fight to give up spots for others, because we're all pretty nice people, generally speaking.  If we filled early, then a new guy showed up, we'd find a spot without a problem.

I changed the title back to normal mafia not because of Robz's wish to keep his tally going, but more the "not another category" argument.  I maintain the current index, so I saw his point.

If there is a real wish for a new category, I can change back.  I have my own mafia games planned upcoming in the queue I really want to mod.  I offered to do this one to help the community fill a need that was specified.  If its just going to cause fights, then man, why change the system?

PPE--I am adding Bozzball and raerae to the player list and moving some stuff around.  Give me a minute and see if the game still appeals (to anyone).

[Robz888]

This is getting crazy.

I started this thread as a new category, but with the full intention of making sure the game filled by including "veterans."  I mean, I have a "veterans only" game coming up, and mcmcsalot is in the pool for that, and I do not consider him an f.ds mafia veteran.

A "newbie only" game that excludes veterans is a dream, I think, because we don't have nine new players to play.  Literally everyone has played at least one game.  So I think if there are new players that don't want to play with old players...then they don't want to play here anyway.

On the playground analogy...I take offense on behalf of Robz and Eevee (Eevee!) for being slotted into the bully roles here.  I think they are trying to help and welcome new players by wanting to play.  They aren't standing with arm crossed; they have arms open.

Forum mafia is first-come based.  If a game over fills, people generally fight to give up spots for others, because we're all pretty nice people, generally speaking.  If we filled early, then a new guy showed up, we'd find a spot without a problem.

I changed the title back to normal mafia not because of Robz's wish to keep his tally going, but more the "not another category" argument.  I maintain the current index, so I saw his point.

If there is a real wish for a new category, I can change back.  I have my own mafia games planned upcoming in the queue I really want to mod.  I offered to do this one to help the community fill a need that was specified.  If its just going to cause fights, then man, why change the system?

PPE--I am adding Bozzball and raerae to the player list and moving some stuff around.  Give me a minute and see if the game still appeals (to anyone).

Yes, exactly. The "not another category" argument is particularly compelling, I think, because if this is a mixed veteran-newbie game that will count for the statistics, well, we've had a bunch of other games like that (M-I, M-II, M-VII, and M-X), so we should keep in the same format and not start a new category. If this game is fundamentally different in some way--really being a newbie game, not counting (or counting or whatever) for statistics--then by all means, start a new category.

[ashersky]

To confirm, sane cop means cop with no false results.

[Voltgloss]

Still need a co-mod?  If so, reporting for duty.

[ashersky]

Still need a co-mod?  If so, reporting for duty.

Thanks!

[raerae]

@ashersky (and everybody else I guess): I apologize that my playground analogy offended.  My intent was never to paint anybody as a bully just to ask people to remember how hard it was (is?) to make friends.  If you're new and there's a group of kids in the corner all having a good time and generally being awesome, it's really hard to approach to them because what if you don't fit in or you smell funny or don't get their jokes. 

I also apologize that this "discussion" seems to have exploded from a misunderstanding, like all good "discussions" do.  The misunderstanding was on my end and I'm just now seeing it.  When this opened I really thought it was supposed to be a newbie only game that would be filled with veterans only if needed (which was almost 100% inevitable) so my post suggesting vets be left off wasn't meant to kick anybody out of the game, just to make it easier for new players to be comfortable joining.  I don't like excluding people from things, as I was and continue to be pretty lame, so it was never my intent to suggest we do that to anybody else.

Group hug, anybody?

[Ozle]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

[raerae]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

I don't want your dirty hug if those hands are roaming around like wild bison!

[Robz888]

@raerae

No apology necessary to me.

Yeah, it's just that, if this is true newbie game, I have no problem with that. It should Newbie Mafia I, all newbies, and (possibly) unranked.

If it's a game that encourages newbies to join, but is also open to the usual overzealous veterans like myself and Eevee (and I miss Frisk, sad), then it's actually no different from six other regular mafia games and should just be Mafia XXI.

[Galzria]

I am up for a group hug!
Watch those roving hands though!

Those might've been mine. Sorry 'bout that.

Might not really be sorry.

[Ozle]

I said those hands, not THESE hands!

THESE hands are washed in the purest of snow, and soaped clean with cleansing balms made from the finest oriental lillies

[Eevee]

My only intent ever was to join to help the fill the game up and get to play some fun mafia. I thought I made it clear I'd be willing to let anyone with less experience than I have take my seat in a newplayer-centric game. I stand by that, I'm willing to play but by no means need to get the slot or will be offended if I don't. On the contrary, I'd be quite joyous if this game filled up with newer players!

I think we should keep the sign ups open after the game fills to give more people time to find this. So yes, just inform me whether I'm in or not when this launches, that's all I ask! Hopefully we'll get a bunch of new players lured in.  Good idea to run a game like this, if I didn't say this already.

Also /in for the group hug. My hands play nice for the most part.

[Ozle]

Actually I am /out of the group hug, thats far too friendly for me, I only came here to distract from the arguing!

[sudgy]

Maybe this game should say that it's newbie-friendly.  I was looking for the simplest game here, and when I saw this one, I thought, "This is perfect!"  I know that me, as a newbie (even though I've played many games irl) I just wanted the simplest game.  I think that's what at least some other newbies want too (yeah, they do want other things, but I'm saying this is one thing).

I'm also in for the group hug.  I was going to suggest that the arguing be brought to another thread, but it's over now.

[Cuzz]

I don't actually want to play this game, but might it not be somewhat beneficial to have a FEW non newbies in a newbie-friendly game? When I played MX as a first-timer it was nice to have Robz, Frisk, O and Eevee there to get some of the conventional wisdom out in the open, and sort of run the discussion a bit. And there were enough of them that they couldn't all be scum. I don't think it would have been as fun if it was all new people who didn't really know what they were doing. They do this on mafiascum if I'm not mistaken (called IC for Inexperience Challenged, not to be confused with Innocent Child http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Being_a_good_IC).

This is not my game and I don't actually care, but I wasn't sure if anyone had made this point.


Also, we all have a lot of fun here and we all like each other. Let's all be cool, please  .

[Voltgloss]

I haven't read everything, but I echo Cuzz's feeling that a few experienced players in with the crowd of new players is a good thing, for the same reasons. 

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

If you want to have a true newbie game, keep it Newbie Mafia I, exclude it from yuma's rankings, and exclude all veteran players.

Otherwise, it should be open to everyone who wants to play.

LOL. Unbelievable.

Yes sir, thank you sir, we will conform to your wishes at all times sir. Thanks for making my point for me again.

I don't know much about the Yuma rankings, but assuming they cover f.DS mafia results, I offer this.  If the rankings exclude all newbie games, then the first X games played by everyone here should not be counted.

Otherwise, they should be open to everyone who has played.

I am under no illusion that I will, or must, get what I want. But you have so far is my point.Okay, well, if I'm correct, or the moderator agrees with me, or most people agree with me, I would expect to get my way. Your "we will conform to your wishes at all times sir" comment implied to me that you thought that I thought I expected to get my way just because I have an inflated sense of self-importance or leadership or something. That is not the case, I am saying. No one is in charge here. Well, technically Ash is.Of this game, yes. I mean, no one is in charge of the Forum Games community in general. Well, I guess theory is, but you get what I mean. Obviously, there's nothing to stop ashersky from running a game that is open to every player but Robz (except that I'm sure he wouldn't do that, because he is a fair and accommodating person or he wants to run a newb game?I was using an extreme example. He can run a newbie game, sure. If he ran a game that deliberately excluded one specific player, that would be pretty mean; I'm not saying that's what is happening here. It isn't., and hopefully my friends would refuse to play a game that deliberately excluded me so you do have some playground experience. No one is deliberately excluding you, you simply don't qualify. Although, in fairness, you may feel deliberately excluded from AARP and the LPGA, just to name two examples.I think we're talking past each other? I don't feel deliberately excluded for this game, if it is an all newbie game, no.) I'm just saying what I would like to see, okay?  I'm open to that notion, but everything you've said has had the tone and the form of instructions, which I believe is contributing to an atmosphere that is less than welcoming, and less than conducive to growing the player population.  I'm just saying what I've seen, okay?I'm sorry if you think the atmosphere is less than welcoming. You could be right; Raerae and shraeye seem to think you are right. Perhaps you are right. I have trouble understanding specifically how this forum is unwelcoming, except that there's a bit of a learning curve to understanding references to past games. Of course hosting an all or mostly newbie game does nothing to address that issue.

Robz, I'm only caught up to this post, but I want to thank you.  These comments greatly clarify where you are coming from and make me feel MUCH better about today's discourse. I don't want that to go un-acknowledged, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to construct this post.

[liopoil]

We aren't going to get 9 new people, so we are guaranteed to get a few vets. This isn't really a problem.

[Robz888]

@SFS, thanks. I do think there was a bit of confusion on my position on running a newbie game. That confusion was my fault for requesting the name change without an explanation.

[ashersky]

Cue veteran Galz ninja /inning the last spot!

[Jimmmmm]

d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Cheers. Like I said, I'd be happy to give up my spot to a Newbie. But I'd be somewhat miffed if I did so while one or two of our most experienced players got to play.

[ashersky]

Kidding of course.  Given this game won't start until an appropriate time, it won't be "full" even at nine.  Folks can just keep signing up and I'll sort it later.

[Galzria]

Cue veteran Galz ninja /inning the last spot!

Nuh-uh! I've reached critical mass, and then gone way over. Dunno when it happened. I was fine, I was fine, I was fine.... And now I quite literally cannot keep up with all the threads I need to as new posts come in, let alone find the time to say anything.

Nothing else for me! Not for some time. I'm hoping I get killed off in some of my ongoing games (not.... Entirely.... Serious). It'd really ease the load.

[Eevee]

d) No response at all to the notion "if there is a sudden rush of Newbies I'd hope veterans such as Robz will be first in line to give up their spot." (BTW, Jim, a cogent, valuable, and commendable post)

Cheers. Like I said, I'd be happy to give up my spot to a Newbie. But I'd be somewhat miffed if I did so while one or two of our most experienced players got to play.

I'd give my spot to you if it got to that, no worries.

[yuma]

Glad this has settled itself--and seriously guys--I made a thread to discuss this sort of stuff, but I guess here is as good as anywhere.

And not to add flames to the fire, but if there is room, I would really like to play in this game. I haven't played in a 9 player version before--aside from Blitz--and am more interested in the simple setups than some of the crazier and zanier ones out there. But, like others have said, I am not demanding a spot. As a vet (~10 games) I have had my fair share and won't be hurt at all if I am not included. If I am not included, I can be a backup mod as well.