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[yuma]

What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:

now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble

I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.

let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.

[yuma]

blah... well I am kinda disappointed in the reaction to glooble's reaction. It was just too easy.... I personally want to hear more from Glooble

[TheMunch]

What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:

now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble

I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.

let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.

Question.  Did you actually mean "case"?  And if yes, what case are you referring to?

[yuma]

What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:

now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble

I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.

let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.

Question.  Did you actually mean "case"?  And if yes, what case are you referring to?

Yes I meant case. As in the case on Glooble is that he is lurking and lurking in a somewhat scummy manner. This is contrasted to early cases that I had criticized that I thought were trying to be bigger and more important than they really should have been.

[mcmcsalot]

I honestly feel like a lynch on glooble is something I would be okay with but personally I would like to hear more from him before hand.

[Glooble]

Ok, I am working tomorrow until 3, so if you all decide to lynch me I'd appreciate if you didn't drop the hammer before 4.

[yuma]

Ok, I am working tomorrow until 3, so if you all decide to lynch me I'd appreciate if you didn't drop the hammer before 4.

I don't think we are in any hurry. Lynch deadline is still aways away. And you only have like 2 or 3 votes at this point I think.

[Jimmmmm]

Just re-read shraeye. Something about the way he's going about his arguments seems a little off to me, but I'm not sure if I think that's scummy. Consider his #520. He talks about and quotes a lot of things, and ends up voting for me. But he doesn't quote me, other than in reference to Eevee and within a Robz quote, and doesn't seem to be paying terribly much attention to anything that I've said. He's focussing a lot more on the case on me (specifically Robz') than on me. Someone (I think it was yuma) said something about day 1 cases being full of misunderstanings, which made me think when I read this that maybe focussing on the cases without looking at the actual evidence is a great way to perpetuate misunderstandings. And yes, I do think the case on me is based on a misunderstanding. You can look at it broadly and say "Oh Jim changed his mind, gradually no less, must be scum" and leave it at that and potentially that looks like a great case. Or you can actually look at things closely as Dsell and theorel have and say "Well actually I understand where he's coming from. I can understand why he thought it was a good case, and I can understand that he felt deflated when he worked out that it wasn't." But shraeye just summarised it all in his own words, seemingly trying to make it seem as scummy as he could.

Then he starts talking about Cuzz:

I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.

I dislike both of these statements.  I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion.  This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him.  This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon.  That actually makes things more suspicious to me.  The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious.  So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me.  Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.

Now reading this I start to think, "Yeah. Cuzz is pretty scummy, with his 'VERY zealous defense' and 'viciously attacking a case'."

But then I go back and look at what Cuzz actually said in response to Eevee:

Eevee your voting for Cuzz seems strange. You seemed to sheep what I didn't think was that strong an argument by Galz, and later you said you had a noread on Cuzz, and that you buy his reasons for being silent. What about Cuzz makes you think he's scummy?

Ditto

Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.

Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:

Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.

so I'm not sure what changed.

And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.

Vote: Eevee

Vote: Eevee

Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?

Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.

Vote: Eevee

Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?

Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.

Okay. It's meh, voting without explanations is scummy, I wanted to put my vote somewhere because not voting just seems pointless, but I can't voice my tiny suspicions on you very well.

I thought it was wrong to suspect you before you actually had time to post. Now you have had, and you still don't seem towny to me. Might have a scum bias on you though, especially now. But it's fine, even "bad" suspicions are good because they bring out reactions.

The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time. But giving Jimmm hard time about his wording about voting me is reasonable, I give you that. Still, nothing you has said has stricken to me as a particularly towny. Again, I just wanted my vote somewhere, and it is maybe unfair of me to put it down on you just because you haven't given me townvibes when there'd be plenty of other, just as deserving people.

Bolded bit is completely untrue.

Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.

1. What do you mean by this?

I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?

The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.

Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.

I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.

But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.

Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.

I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.

So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.

Vote: Eevee again, I guess.

I totally agree with everything in this post.

Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888

There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.

Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)

Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.

Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).

My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.

This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.

I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.

With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.

Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.

Again I agree with Robz. I actually think the case on Eevee is growing more solid. And those freaking out about 4 votes need to unbunch their undergarments of choice. I can point to two recent games (one ongoing, that's all I'll say) in which a wagon has gotten to L-2 even sooner than this, and we have the same conversation every time: Anyone who pushes any wagon to or over the brink prematurely D1 will be regarded as scum. L-4 is nothing.

Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.

cuzz, I didnt intentionally lie. you've been critical of me, it's easy to get confused when you are town and don't check all the facts super carefully. apologies.

Eevee I want a full response to my post #421:

Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.

1. What do you mean by this?

I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.

2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?

The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.

Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.

Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.

In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.

I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.

To me, this isn't a vicious attack, or an overly zealous defense, and I agree with a lot of what he says here. He was accused of something (calling Eevee scummy) which wasn't true, and Eevee's vote on him seemed to come from nowhere. Cuzz was questioning Eevee about both of these things, as he rightly should have, and wasn't really getting a good response from him, and concluded that Eevee was scummy based on what was at best strange behaviour.

Then there was this:

Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.

This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote.  This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place.  When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow".  Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over?  A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.

Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.

I didn't think this scolding was necessary:

Ok guys, you ready?!?!  Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee!  There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it.  The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.

Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it.  In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake.  Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason.  Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure.  Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.

I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.

Stop this nonsense, Munch.  I know that you hate this sort of argument as a reason for voting, and I'm appalled that you are using it without qualms here.  I think the general way he has been responding to pressure has made him sound towny to me.  The bolded sentence that you provide is the reason you should unvote Eevee.  You said that this impression has dissipated.  Don't rely on stale "feelings" that you can't describe, that is not how *you* scumhunt well.

Here shraeye is making out that Munch is saying "Oh I used to think Eevee was scummy but I'm not sure why, but I'll still vote for him anyway" when in fact he's saying "I don't understand why everyone's dropped off the Eevee wagon."

Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.

I agree with this.

To me this reads like he's just taking the opportunity to remind everyone of this, but again without giving any reasons. He just seems to want to perpetuate the general idea.

Also, the deflection thing:

Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.

Actually, this deflection is much more serious than I thought.  I went back page by page, searching for Glooble's name.  The last time it came up while talking about lurking was this post by Robz more than 2 days ago.  Cuzz did just bring it up.

We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?

Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.

I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.

What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.

I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.

Again, I actually agree with Cuzz. You've been on his case for ages about how defensive you think he's been, and then he starts talking about something else and suddenly he's scummy for deflecting. How exactly is he supposed to respond? What's the non-scummy way to respond to a case?

Anyway, I think shraeye has quite often been painting things as scummier than they actually are, either by seemingly misunderstanding them, which is strange coming from someone who said, "I see no reason why someone who is normally rational to stop acting that way, it's not a better way to play mafia in my opinion, and it's not an easy mistake for a normally rational person to start making bad arguments.", or by talking about vaguely and spinning things to make it sounds like something very suspicious is afoot.

So I'm certainly not sold on shraeye's scumhunting method, but whether that makes him scum or just someone who's trying too hard to get people to believe his reads, I'm not sure.

[shraeye]

Then there was this:

Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.

This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote.  This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place.  When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow".  Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over?  A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.

Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.

Odd that you would say I 'invented a townread'; I resent that you make it out like I'm arbitrarily deciding what I think your reads are, when in a rational world 'will not lynch today' has a very high correlation with 'townread.'  Also, since you responded to this, I haven't brought it up, because what you said made sense.  However, both you and theorel have brought it up as if I'm still loudly talking about your 'read' on Galz.

Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.

I agree with this.

To me this reads like he's just taking the opportunity to remind everyone of this, but again without giving any reasons. He just seems to want to perpetuate the general idea.

I still stand behind this, and I DO want to take every opportunity to remind people of you.  There's a reason I had been voting for you for a while.

Also, the deflection thing:

Again, I actually agree with Cuzz. You've been on his case for ages about how defensive you think he's been, and then he starts talking about something else and suddenly he's scummy for deflecting. How exactly is he supposed to respond? What's the non-scummy way to respond to a case?

The deflection thing is actually quite serious.  Cuzz didn't show up with a case on somebody else, nor did he do any scumhunting work.  He just said (essentially) "soooo...LaLL is a thing, have we looked at Glooble lately?"  This is deflection.

[shraeye]

I didn't think this scolding was necessary:

The scolding of Munch wasn't necessary, but it was fun.  I do see that I misinterpreted part of his statement now, but my point still stands.  There most definitely was something odd about the reasons for his vote on Eevee (you're missing the context of the RL debates we have on mafia methods), and his unvote shows it too.

But Eevee being worried about me because he reads me wrong is a symptom I share about him.  I feel like I read him wrong.  I've been comfortable with my vote sitting on him for quite some time and really hopped that something came of it (what I wanted to come of it I'm going to choose not to share at this time... all I'll say is bad theory is bad, oh well) but at best Eevee's been making me feel weird this game.
...
unvote

[Cuzz]

Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.

I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).

People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.

In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.

Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.

liopoil has been too quiet to get a read on. It's scummy behavior, but could be typical newbie scum lurking or typical newbie town lurking (I used to get suspected for this a lot).

Galz is tricky. He often seems like the most pro-town player in the game when he's town, and he's not jumping out at me like that here. Of course he was the last to fill in this game and warned us that he wouldn't be that kind of player here before getting alignment, so this could be Volt in XVI all over again. Still, there's not much to convince me that he's probably town yet.

[raerae]

Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.

I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).

People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.

In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.

Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.

liopoil has been too quiet to get a read on. It's scummy behavior, but could be typical newbie scum lurking or typical newbie town lurking (I used to get suspected for this a lot).

Galz is tricky. He often seems like the most pro-town player in the game when he's town, and he's not jumping out at me like that here. Of course he was the last to fill in this game and warned us that he wouldn't be that kind of player here before getting alignment, so this could be Volt in XVI all over again. Still, there's not much to convince me that he's probably town yet.

Stop!  Just stop!  We are THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.  Do yourselves all a favor and judge us as so unless you have a real reason to see us together.  Robz and mom salon don't get grouped.  I don't if there are more twin claims in this game but they aren't being grouped.  Stop acting like we're sharing the same brain.  So far I'm the only one who has given you reason to think any of us are related and that is solely based on shraeye beating me to the vote on jimmmmmm.  You didn't group yuma in with us after he joined the wagon, did you?  No.  So please, please, stop lumping us in together.

[Cuzz]

Chill. That was a joke. I do not think you all share a brain. But it does so happen that I have a townread on none of you, which has nothing to do with any twinclaims.

[mcmcsalot]

So I've gone through and re read the people I mentioned and during this re read, I've actually come to an interesting conclusion.

First off I went through and read the whole cuzz ordeal. I do find cuzz reacted overly defensive and I did find his deflection scummy. The thing is this is only a feeling and an opinion not concrete evidence. I won't cast my vote for him as of now because my only reasons are these. I understand an overly defensive response seems scummy, but I can totally understand flustered town responding the same way. As far as the deflection goes that was veery scummy but think about this. Is anyone talking about Lall as a reason to lynch glooble anymore, everyone dropped it once glooble pointed out cuzz was the first to bring it up. Just because it was a scummy deflection doesn't make the Lall case for glooble any less strong. My read through of cuzz has brought me too the conlcusion that hes scummy but i find nothing concrete enough for a vote, and I still see glooble as a viable lynch, nothing he has posted since his return has been something I wouldn't see scum doing.

Next my read through of Robz. I mainly did this because his outburst at cuzz for responding before I did was a bit jarring. At first I found this to be scummy, if the argument is there for why I'm not scum I don't see how cuzz bringing it up is really that terrible. But then I thought back to ZMIX, this tactic of baiting people into a scumslip is what he did there as well just in a different way. I find this to be town!robz main scumhunting tactic and although I find it a very poor one, it is very town!robz.

After rereading theorel, still nothing jumps out as scummy or towny, very much a null read to me.

Upon rereading shraeye I've found I support him very strongly for his opinion on Jimm. Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that. Also I find it very scummy that Jim says shraeye just summarized the case on jim and tried to make it seem as scummy as possible. This is exactly what Jim has been doing all game and why I have found him scummy in the past. Next I don't agree with Jim's defense at all. Look at the opening post of 832, Jim says shraeye is focusing too much on the case made against him and not on what hes actually said. Then he says we should look at things closer as theorel and dsell have. He follows this by quoting how theorel and dsell "understand" where hes coming from. Where do dsell and theorel look at things closer? Simply because they support you they have a better "understanding" of the whole case? I think shraeye has provided much support for how you have been acting scummy all game and points to other people who have made cases against you as well. This looks like a much closer look into you then simply understanding how you came to the conclusion you did. Jim also seems to attack shraeye for attacking cuzz which I don't find helpfull to town at all. All Jim is doing there is making shraeye look less credible in other arguments to make the argument he makes against Jim less credible. Defend yourself, don't attack the person attacking you. Vote: Jimm

[ashersky]

A note on liopoil.  I think the newbie defense is valid for him.  It would be neat to have MXXI as reference for him, but that game is two away.  This setup, with multiple scum teams, is harder on newbies.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.

Don't get too excited, I'm still due for a re-read on you.

[Jimmmmm]

Upon rereading shraeye I've found I support him very strongly for his opinion on Jimm. Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that.
...
Defend yourself, don't attack the person attacking you. Vote: Jimm

Firstly, sorry what? I'm getting very mixed messages from this.
Secondly, sorry what? You're saying that it's more important for me to convince everyone that I'm Town than it is for me to try to find the actual scum?

Jim also seems to attack shraeye for attacking cuzz which I don't find helpfull to town at all. All Jim is doing there is making shraeye look less credible in other arguments to make the argument he makes against Jim less credible.

Yeah, that doesn't work at all. Now you're attacking me for attacking shraeye for attacking Cuzz. See the problem? Maybe you're trying to make me look less credible in other arguments to make the argument I make against you less credible.

Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that.

This just seems like you've glossed over the post and thought "Oh well he's saying bad things about shraeye who's voting for him, must be OMGUS." Understand the intent of my post: it was not to give a defense, it was my thoughts from re-reading shreaye. Of course there will be things about me in there since shraeye's voting for me. But it's not a good idea to dismiss a post as overly defensive because it's about someone who's voting for the poster. What about it seems overly defensive? What about something I said came across as scummy to you?

Also I find it very scummy that Jim says shraeye just summarized the case on jim and tried to make it seem as scummy as possible.

Here is shraeye's case on me:

I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.

Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today.

It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.

Robz, this is exactly how I read that too.  Between teh Eevee/Jimmm interaction, they both may have felt a little weird, but Jimmmm felt inherently scummy.  His original position seemed forced, the way he decreased suspicion bit-by-bit seemed staged, and now he "won't vote eevee".  ALL of his opinions regarding eevee seem completely manufactured.  I can't tell right now if that makes eevee more likely Jimmmm's partner, or town that Jimmm's trying to get credit from, but I'm very certain it makes Jimmmm scum.  I think he's a much better lynch than Eevee.

Vote: Jimmmmm

He summarises my original position by saying it "seemed forced". No indication as why he thinks that, or acknowledgement of his previous stance that I wasn't trying to trick anyone with it, it just "seems forced". That's it. Then I supposedly "decreased suspicion bit-by-bit". Again, no acknowledgement of the fact that he didn't think I tried to trick anyone, or that if I was just "careless" as he said, then decreasing my suspicion is exactly what I'd do once I realised my mistake. No, it just "seemed staged". And "ALL" of my opinions on Eevee "seem completely manufactured." What does that even mean? That I made up in my head the idea that I thought Eevee contradicted himself? That can't be it, he said himself that I wasn't trying to trick people. What else, then?

This is exactly what Jim has been doing all game and why I have found him scummy in the past.

Show me where I've done this. Show me where I've ignored the actual evidence and just tried to put my own spin on things. If you can, I will go back and look at the evidence.

Next I don't agree with Jim's defense at all. Look at the opening post of 832, Jim says shraeye is focusing too much on the case made against him and not on what hes actually said. Then he says we should look at things closer as theorel and dsell have. He follows this by quoting how theorel and dsell "understand" where hes coming from. Where do dsell and theorel look at things closer? Simply because they support you they have a better "understanding" of the whole case?

Dsell and theorel were off the top of my head. I think with theorel I was talking about #574, and with Dsell I was talking about this:

I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.

I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.

So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.

Here Dsell has taken the time to look at what I've said and why, instead of apparently just assuming I'm scum because I did what appeared to be a 180.

I think shraeye has provided much support for how you have been acting scummy all game and points to other people who have made cases against you as well. This looks like a much closer look into you then simply understanding how you came to the conclusion you did.

Maybe I need to re-read shraeye again, because I didn't get that at all. The main crux of his argument on me seems to be "He did a 180." Please point me to any other convincing and well thought-out arguments he has made. I see the other thing he talked about was "the way he backed down from it". Well you can think that's scummy if you want. The reason it was "in stages" is because first I thought it was a good case. Then I realised one of the statements was from a different perspective than the other, but it still seemed to say he would have cleared himself (and it does kind of seem to say that). Then I thought about it some more and started to imagine how these would fit together if Eevee was Town. Then I was like "Oh crap so much for my super case, what now? I really need to move on from Eevee." You can disbelieve me if you want, but that's what happened.

[Eevee]

I like producing O-like statements without giving any reasons so now I'm announcing I have a town read on Jimm.

[yuma]

guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

[theorel]

Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.

This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote...

Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.

Odd that you would say I 'invented a townread'; I resent that you make it out like I'm arbitrarily deciding what I think your reads are, when in a rational world 'will not lynch today' has a very high correlation with 'townread.'  Also, since you responded to this, I haven't brought it up, because what you said made sense.  However, both you and theorel have brought it up as if I'm still loudly talking about your 'read' on Galz.

I felt I should mention, the reason I brought this up was two-fold:
1. You criticized Jimmmmm heavily for taking his post out of context.  You doing so is hypocritical, hypocrisy is a scum-tell (IMO, others disagree...)
2. You were still voting Jimmmmm when I brought it up.  Therefore you were (in my mind) loudly proclaiming the truth of that post.  If you knew it was inaccurate you should have been voting for Cuzz, because "it was the tipping point".  i.e. You only voted Jimmmmm over Cuzz because he made posts like the one you pointed out which was in fact completely and obviously misinterpreted, as had already been pointed out.

To me this makes it seem like your explanation there wasn't genuine.  You weren't actually voting Jimmmmm over Cuzz because of posts like that.  So why were you?  (and the most logical reason for faking reasons is that you don't have real ones because you're scum).

[Eevee]

guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

Well, I agree, but still read them hoping for a read. And I guess producing a long post without seeming scummy is a bit of a townread.

[Jimmmmm]

guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?

[Glooble]

guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

Well, I agree, but still read them hoping for a read. And I guess producing a long post without seeming scummy is a bit of a townread.

That logic seems to rule out shraeye and both his reads. Now, right now they seem like the only people with strong, consistent ideas about where the scum is ( at least in the last 3 pages or so) so I don't really see the point in discouraging this fight.

I'm starting to strongly believe there is scum among the three fighting now. I have to leave for church now, but if I have time later today, I'll be trying to figure out who is making the stronger case.

Yuma's unwillingness to do so reads a little bit scummy to me. But it also doesn't move us closer to a lynch, which is not consistent with scum behavior. So it's a toss-up.

[yuma]

In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?

I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but it was I am going to do. Look at the mini-wagons that have formed thus far (because it is something concrete that can't be manipulated, and then go from there)...

So we have had wagons on Eevee (kinda two on him thus far), Jimmm and Glooble and Cuzz

Glooble: ashersky, Eevee, yuma, Jimmmmm, Cuzz

Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Eevee, Robz888

Jimmmmm: Glooble, liopoil, Shraeye, raerae, yuma, mcmc

Eevee: TheMunch, Cuzz, Jimmmm, theorel, Robz888, ashersky

I hope this is accurate. I took vote counts to find miniwagons and then checked for other votes... Note that the above is not necessarily the order in which the votes occurred.

So here we have:

People on 0 mini-wagons: Dsell
People on 1 mini-wagon: Eevee, Raerae, mcmc, theorel, Galzria, liopoil
People on 2 mini-wagons: ashersky, Robz, yuma, shraeye, Cuzz, Jimmmm, TheMunch, Glooble

Hmmm. So this didn't bring about as much as I had hoped and I can't really analyze it much more at the moment. I gotta run, but will be back after noon my time. If anyone else wants to take a stab at it go right ahead.

[liopoil]

guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?

I agree with this completely. It's probably why I haven't posted as much as I should. I could post big fluffy posts but it doesn't seem worth it. Yuma's latest post about mini-wagons seems to be the way to go about it. voting history is real, solid evidence. So is things like what happened a the beginning with the eevee-dsell station-town thing. Nothing like that has happened since. I plan on posting much more today.