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[Glooble]

Shraeye, could you reiterate your case on Cuzz, or at least point me in the direction of posts you found scummy from him?

[Dsell]

I find Glooble's reaction genuine.

But it could come from either town or scumGlooble. ScumGlooble is very good, I know.

I'm not sure he's the best lynch, but I am not 100% caught up on reading so....

[Cuzz]

When I left forum mafia, it was basically because I felt as a person who works a job where I don't have access to a computer, it was very hard for me to keep pace with all of you. I thought obtaining a smartphone would help with this, since I could keep up on my commute and maybe post on my lunchbreak, but the fact is, I just have to many commitments in my life to post here every day. This week especially I've had a lot going on.

This isn't to try and make excuses. This game is a commitment and I shouldn't have signed up for it without better evaluating my ability to commit to it. But here we are now, and I have no defense for how much I've been lurking, and I can't fault you for lynching me, but I am town, and I so have a role that could potentially be very useful, so for the sake of the town I'd just as soon not get lynched.

This sounds completely genuine to me.

Agreed. Unvote

[ashersky]

unvote for now.  LALL votes are generally for calling lurkers out and to see how they react.  Glooble was genuine.

If he replaces out, I will give the new player a fresh look.  If not, the stuff he's saying so far is towny enough not to lynch.

Back to vote: raerae.

[shraeye]

Shraeye, could you reiterate your case on Cuzz, or at least point me in the direction of posts you found scummy from him?

Here's the original case, there's a lot there, but what I find most important is this clipped part

Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells.  The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all.  I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.

Cuzz responds, and I don't like the style of his response, he's pushing back REALLY hard against cases on him (and didn't even get to the main point of the "that isn't the right reason to suspect me" scumtell).  I recall scumCuzz flipping out in Switch mafia, and compare this to fade-into-the-night cuzz in Blitz 7 where he was mislynched as town.

Hi shraeye. Here's my breakdown of your case against me. I'd also like it if others could read this carefully too. I don't often make massive wall of text posts, and when I do I hate feeling like they're going off into the ether to be ignored by everyone.

Here's my less summarized version of a rebuttal to his defense

New things
There have been 3 things since then that perked up my ears as well

I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!

Jokey helplessness; this is another scum trait in my eyes.  Either ignore the case and move on, or give a defense to it.  It's not simply 'giving defenses' that is making Cuzz sound overly defensive and scummy, it's the unwarranted intensity of the defense when a simple one might have sufficed.

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

Another "Tell me the good reason to suspect me" tell.

Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.

You still lean scum to me from our interactions a while ago. But I'm not certain of course. You clearly read me better than Robz did in XVI (kudos) and I appreciate you defending me now, but unfortunately for you that tells me next to nothing about your own alignment.

On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.

And here when Cuzz starts bringing up lurker Glooble, I see this as deflection.  Galz/Munch/Robz were on Cuzz, I was clearly against him, and the general tone of the thread felt anti-Cuzz.  Then it got majorly distracted by Glooble issues.

[Cuzz]

In other words, it's scummy to talk about myself (defensiveness!), and scummy to talk about other people (deflection!). Got it.

[Glooble]

Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.

At first glance I'm finding your case pretty solid. He does seem extremely defensive.

Jimmm still gives me bad vibes, but I don't want to lynch him. I don't have a solid reason and he's been so active.

Eevee I have no idea about. I think all of the strong arguments for and against him as scum have cancelled each other out, and my own read on him is just bleh. i think the initial reasons he was under fire (the station/town thing, not remembering his role PM) were silly. But the way he defended himself seemed a little scummy.

If I had to lynch someone tonight, I think I would vote for Cuzz. But I'm not totally sold on him either, and we do have some time.

[mcmcsalot]

So now that the lall thing is over? Ill try and reread this whole cuzz deal I had honesty been tunneling on Jimm pretty hard. I feel like I've hit that point, this game has twice as many pages as the last game I was in altogether. I will try to get a good read on a few people cuzz, theorel, robz, shraeye. As I feel I haven't looked at them close enough or they have been a topic of discussion recently. I don't know if I will get to this today or tomorow but ill be able to respond/comment on anything going on tonight.

[ashersky]

Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.

At first glance I'm finding your case pretty solid. He does seem extremely defensive.

Jimmm still gives me bad vibes, but I don't want to lynch him. I don't have a solid reason and he's been so active.

Eevee I have no idea about. I think all of the strong arguments for and against him as scum have cancelled each other out, and my own read on him is just bleh. i think the initial reasons he was under fire (the station/town thing, not remembering his role PM) were silly. But the way he defended himself seemed a little scummy.

If I had to lynch someone tonight, I think I would vote for Cuzz. But I'm not totally sold on him either, and we do have some time.

I think I mentioned it before Cuzz, fwiw. 

[Jimmmmm]

I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.

Why?

If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.

Why?

FWIW, I haven't been on Eevee for awhile now, so this is weirdly timed.

I noticed something.  Call it a town slip.  If anyone else would notice it, it's you.  That's the why on both.

Why so intent to keep your cards close to your chest? If you have a genuine reason to have a Town read on a Townie who is under pressure, how is it helpful to keep quiet about it?

[shraeye]

Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.

Actually, this deflection is much more serious than I thought.  I went back page by page, searching for Glooble's name.  The last time it came up while talking about lurking was this post by Robz more than 2 days ago.  Cuzz did just bring it up.

We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?

Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.

I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.

What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.

I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.

[shraeye]

I think I mentioned [LaLL] before Cuzz, fwiw.

Where do you think you mentioned this?  I couldn't find an instance of you talking about lynching Glooble because of his lurking before cuzz said that.

Possibly you just mentioned LaLL, but I'm sure Cuzz was the first to talk about Glooble in particular.

[Jimmmmm]

I agree that Glooble's response seems fine.

I do think we've been left hanging on this a bit though: Glooble, are you going to swap out or increase your contributions?

[liopoil]

Sorry I haven't been posting much. I have been following this closely, and it isn't that I don't have time to post. So yeah, I guess I'm lurking XD. It's that I don't feel like I have a lot to add. My reads are very weak and not much has really happened. Once we've had a night maybe there will be more to talk about. Anyway, I'll post my thoughts on glooble in a second.

[Eevee]

I agree Glooble's response seems fine. Although I think he is easily crafty enough to do it as scum. Still, my gut continues to read him as towny whereas my brain says I shouldn't trust my gut in this case. Robz seems to find this a scummy contradiction, which I don't agree with.

I think I was the first one to explain my methods of looking for a target by using the post count / amount of contributions as a way to look at people. I landed on Munch, someone else called for Glooble's head, I found it acceptable and voted 2nd, and a wagon formed.

ashersky, do you have a reason for not revealing my "townslip" to everyone? If you do, it's fine, but doing it for no reason seems unnecessary complicating.

[liopoil]

I pretty much agree with several of you who voted glooble and then unvoted. He has been helpful when he has posted. His defense has seemed honest. Everyone has been under scrutiny has given a good defense in my eyes actually (glooble, eevee, raerae).

Also as I haven't been posting a ton I'm not going to push for LALL....

I'm going to re-read some of cuzz/jimmmmm/mcmc and post about at least one of them now.

Unrelated:

mom salon is mcmc right?
When is the deadline? I asked this already but didn't get an answer. I can't find it anywhere...

[Eevee]

Yeah, mom salon is mcmc. Our deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m. forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Off to work, so won't be very active for the next while if at all. I'm happy to Unvote.

My task when I have time is to re-read shraeye, Cuzz and ash.

[liopoil]

Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells.  The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all.  I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.

Cuzz responds, and I don't like the style of his response, he's pushing back REALLY hard against cases on him (and didn't even get to the main point of the "that isn't the right reason to suspect me" scumtell).  I recall scumCuzz flipping out in Switch mafia, and compare this to fade-into-the-night cuzz in Blitz 7 where he was mislynched as town.

I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!

Jokey helplessness; this is another scum trait in my eyes.  Either ignore the case and move on, or give a defense to it.  It's not simply 'giving defenses' that is making Cuzz sound overly defensive and scummy, it's the unwarranted intensity of the defense when a simple one might have sufficed.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

Another "Tell me the good reason to suspect me" tell.

On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.

And here when Cuzz starts bringing up lurker Glooble, I see this as deflection.  Galz/Munch/Robz were on Cuzz, I was clearly against him, and the general tone of the thread felt anti-Cuzz.  Then it got majorly distracted by Glooble issues.

Note: I cut out parts of shraeye's post.

The deflection thing is what seems the most scummy to me. I can totally see myself doing something like that as scum. 

Yes, cuzz's defense seems to be a bit more urgent, bold, defiant and well, defensive than others. Not only does this seem a it scummy to me, but just in general doing this differently from other people is probably scummy.

Shraeye has been making good arguments. People who make good points get town reads. So I think shraeye is town. Same with glooble.

[Eevee]

I'm starting to get a scummy vibe from liopoil.

[liopoil]

Ahhh! oh noes!

[raerae]

I'm starting to get a scummy vibe from liopoil.

You and your vibes and your guts...that is an awkward horror porn in the making.

But, is it just your feelings or because he admitted to actilurking (did I use that correctly??) or something else entirely?

[shraeye]

that is an awkward horror porn in the making.

...

[Glooble]

My brother seemed really sad when I told him I might replace out, so I'm gonna see if I can contribute more. I usually get way more into it on day 2 anyway.

[yuma]

Trying to do better than LaLL is sort of what led to D1 in casino game. I don't mean there was an obvious lurker lynch there, but from my perspective it seemed like town was dying to find airtight cases and be stubborn about who they would refuse to vote for or refuse to give up a case on. By the end of the day everyone had a wagon on them, reads were muddled, town mislynched shraeye at town!Robz's insistence after like 60 pages and behavior was hard to analyze on D2.

I guess my point is that LaLL is at least as good as any other reasoning D1. At least once there's been some degree of healthy discussion as there has been here.

Does anyone else have the feeling that town does better when they kinda just get D1 over with kinda quickly even if they mislynch?

this is how I feel. I don't know if rushed is the right way to put it... and town doesn't always tend to do well when it has an obvious day1 lynch... MXII for example in pps...

But really to say that voting Glooble isn't enough is kinda silly, because it is something real and provable. Whereas the other cases, while some have more merit than others, are based off interpretation, metas and (day 1 more often than not) misunderstandings. These cases have a role, but they shouldn't be counted higher than other day1 methods.