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[yuma]

I am, again, not caught up, but I reiterate that I strongly disagree with a Jimmmmm lynch.

but why do you think this. You have said this before, but the only reason you have provided is this:

I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.

I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.

So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.

You give him credit for being "internally consistent." I don't understand what this means. Yes, he had a case on eevee, and dropped it once he realized it wasn't great. But why doesn't he want to go back to Eevee when other's present cases? If other people have good cases on Eevee, shouldn't he be willing to relook in that direction?

And the second part here is just silly. Everyone seems to agree that you aren't obvtown, but more likely town than not. Does that give you town reads on everyone else.

What do you think of the items I just posted above? Throughout this whole day you have said over and over again, and with the exception of the post above haven't provided any rationalization for it, that Jimmm is town. I could see a slight town read or a null read from what you said above, but a very strong town read?

[shraeye]

I think Cuzz is a reasonable alternative to the Jimmmm lynch, though I still prefer Jimmm right now.  I have scheduled a reread of Jimmm, Cuzz and mcmcsalot when I get time.

Dsell, if you are staunchly against Jimmm (and do answer yuma's question above, please), could you tell me what you think about Cuzz?

[Dsell]

Again, I'm not caught up, and have not reread everything. But yuma, your case on Jimmmm is simply not compelling to me. I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read. I have made the mistake of comparing people's styles between games too many times, it just does not seem like an effective way of scumhunting to me. I think using general metas and playstyles often works, but it seems that there are too many factors going into any given situation to draw reads by comparing two specific cases. Also, I found his reaction to his case to be quite genuine, it didn't feel manufactured to me at all. I also thought his reaction to others' new cases seemed real.

I dunno, it's easy to point to this and that as things that give you a scum read, but it's harder to quantify town reads. I have one on Jimmm, it is based on the things I pointed out in that post as well as a few other things.

What makes you think I have town reads on everyone else? I have a town read on Jimmmm. That was literally all that post was about. I don't have a town read on you, for example.

It's fine for people to develop their own reads, that's the name of the game, right? But I am so surprised that SO many people are getting scumreads on Jimmm, and from my perspective it is hard to believe that everyone on this wagon or that's expressed interest in this wagon is town.

[Jimmmmm]

I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read.

Do you mean mcmc?

[TheMunch]

I read Cuzz's response and at this time I really wouldn't be all too surprised if Cuzz was SK.

[Dsell]

I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read.

Do you mean mcmc?

Yuuup.

[Eevee]

The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)

Trying to find a suitable emoticon.

  will have to do.

[Eevee]

The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)

Ridiculous. The cases you were pushing on him were preposterous. I mean honestly? I've no clue who my character is right this minute. If you asked I would have to check my PM. Shraeye has indicated similar and it's exactly what Eevee said. Yet somehow it's suspicious Eevee doesn't know? Please. I read my PM throughly enough to know what little power my role had, and that I was town. Then I closed it - at the moment Dsell had asked I couldn't have told you "Station-Aligned" without actually checking because it was am irrelevant point to me when I first got my PM.

And at a meta level, what scum game is Eevee mimicking? Honestly, point me the way and I'll go read. This isn't any scum!Eevee I've ever seen, and I've seen scum!Eevee a handful of times. They've all contained similar traits which I've laid out already - traits that this Eevee simply doesn't have.

I still say the case against Eevee was neither ridiculous nor preposterous, although I agree the original pieces of evidence are no longer compelling, and I'm not driving for that lynch very firmly, though I'm not sold on anyone else yet. But look, Eevee is perfectly aware of his town!meta, and while copying your town!meta is easier said than done... I know Insomniac can do it, for instance, and I bet Eevee can, too. And he hasn't felt like town!Eevee to me here the whole game, he seems like he abruptly started acting like town!Eevee at the point at which he was in trouble. And I really dislike when people make the "I don't even know my role PM, that's how much of a disinterested, harmless townie I am!" argument. It always rings false to me. It could be true, but looking up your own PM takes 5 seconds and is so easy to do, there's never actually a situation where it matters that you can't recite your PM off the top of your head. So pointing out that you don't know it always seems like one of those pretty lousy pieces of acquitting evidence than scum would think is really smart to say.

And I don't like when you act like you know everything better than everyone else. Alas, I think you're town when you do that, but you probably think that too, so I'm not going to WIFOM you over your meta. Don't be so overconfident in your language if you're town, man.

MY FLAVOUR NAME HAS LITERALLY ZERO BEARING IN THE GAME. I KNOW 100% WHAT MY ROLE DOES, IT'S NOT ANTITOWN OF ME AT ALL TO NOT REMEMBER A RANDOM NAME I WAS ASSIGNED FROM A TV SERIES I'VE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE EPISODE/MINUTE OF.

Ok, this is probably helping scum with too much info, but this continous argument from Robz just annoys me too much. I HAVE READ MY ROLE PM FULLY LIKE FIVE TIMES. I STILL DONT REMEMBER MY FLAVOUR NAME BECAUSE ITS FUQQEN COMPLICATED AND I KNOW NOTHING NADA ZERO NOLLA OF DS9 FLAVOUR. SERIOUSLY ITS JUST A RANDOM WORD/WORDS TO ME IN A LANGUAGE THAT ISNT NATIVE TO ME, WHY WOULD I REMEMBER IT!? seriously, some random letters that didnt remind me of anything, that's all my flavour name is to me. I've read my pm PLENTY of times and still probably couldn't identify my flavour name even if someone posted all the alternatives! I'm absolutely baffled you think me not remembering a random 2-30 letter combination is scummy. Seriously, I don't even know if Captain Kirk is from this particular sci-fi or from some other one, I honestly know NOTHING of this. Like, I know Harry Potter isn't from this, but that's about it. why would i lie about this fact?

/drunken rant and YES I would be crafty enough to fake being drunk if I was scum.

A sidenote, I sort of don't know where my meta of being awfully nice to everyone comes from. I think I'm super gullible, but I don't think the niceness-image exists anywhere but on these forums. I absolutely love being thought of like a very nice person though, so I don't mind. But I'm sort of worried this post will make you all to think of me as a less of a pleasant fellow. I really do do do do try to be nice to everyone, I really do! And the pleasant response such behavior has warranted in here makes me try even harder, so thank you all for making me a better person in life. /finalendofrant

[Robz888]

Eevee, nevermind the remembering PM thing. But this is important: Are you part of the town?

[Eevee]

Totally gut based reads I'm getting from reading the new posts and thinking about the game: Robz seems like scumrobz. Yuma looks very towny to me (as usual).


(I guess i can try to describe the reasons for these feelings: yuma's 688 just reads very towny me, i dont think people usually admit to being contradictory as scum if no one calls them out, because being contradictory reads scummy to people and that's what not what scum wants town to think about. scumread that's 100% new for me comes from other people (such as yuma) describing Robz's positions, makes it seem awfully lot like he decided to think something and is now fake-stubborn on it despite the lack of proper evidence. Like, he could be able to read me better. I'm not saying he should be, but Galzria is which supports this statement. Generally, without reading back I get this feeling he has decided some positions from early on and has been super consistent on them. Which reads scummy to me because it seems like he has decided he thinks something and is now just looking for ways to justify that. Townies are usually more hedgy/unsure, especially smart one's like Robz definitely is.

[Eevee]

Oh post post PPE, yes I'm station aligned Robzie! Drunk AMA, go for it please. I really want to solve this game!

[Eevee]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

[Robz888]

Totally gut based reads I'm getting from reading the new posts and thinking about the game: Robz seems like scumrobz. Yuma looks very towny to me (as usual).


(I guess i can try to describe the reasons for these feelings: yuma's 688 just reads very towny me, i dont think people usually admit to being contradictory as scum if no one calls them out, because being contradictory reads scummy to people and that's what not what scum wants town to think about. scumread that's 100% new for me comes from other people (such as yuma) describing Robz's positions, makes it seem awfully lot like he decided to think something and is now fake-stubborn on it despite the lack of proper evidence. Like, he could be able to read me better. I'm not saying he should be, but Galzria is which supports this statement. Generally, without reading back I get this feeling he has decided some positions from early on and has been super consistent on them. Which reads scummy to me because it seems like he has decided he thinks something and is now just looking for ways to justify that. Townies are usually more hedgy/unsure, especially smart one's like Robz definitely is.

I did unvote you and switch to Cuzz, and I no longer think you're the scummiest person. I also reversed myself on Jimm after calling him one of my top town reads. I've been consistent on, let's see, ashersky I guess? And theorel. So I think you're off here saying that I am "super" consistent.

[Robz888]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

[Robz888]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

[raerae]

@galz & theorel, you both pointed out (around post 665, I think) that shraeye hadn't commented on theorel's case against him.  I'm interested in your take on Jimmmmm's avoidance of my case on him and (correct me if I'm wrong) shraeye's case on him.  Is it normal for Jimmmmm (or anybody for that matter) to avoid discussing cases against him/them?  Overall question: Why call one person out for not responding to a case but not call somebody else out?

How close to accurate is our most recent vote count (post 663)?  I know yuma has unvoted but I can't remember anybody else's votes and unvotes and don't trust myself enough to keep it straight on the reread.  Working up the courage and energy to do another reread but would like to see that first.

And, just a little frustration here, I am SUPER bummed this thread is already a million pages long.  I am missing out on soooooooo many hilarious comebacks.  Fairly certain my head is going to explode.

[Eevee]

Sorry for spamming with multiple posts, this is sort of a bad habit of mine. Still catching up and posting my thoughts as I get further.

Yuma's #696: I think I had sufficient reasons for asking if I should claim. Yes, this is me saying my role is such that claiming it early works reasonably well. However, not PINL, I would totally lie here if I though it was for the best of town.

However, I got to clarify I thought our soft deadline was like two days before the actual one rather than the full week it actually was. So no, I would not have suggested me claiming if I wasn't being stupid. I thought our days were more valuable than they actually were.

[Cuzz]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

[Robz888]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.

[Eevee]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

Well, his emotional defense in Eeveemafia (YES calling it that, sue me) was terrible in my opinion. Like, I really LOVE to read into those kind of things and it wasn't compelling to me at ALL. So, just based on accurately pinning his emotion-based scumdefense in that game as what it was, I feel I'm ok enough at reading him to think he is town here. I'm not as certain as I was about yuma in switch, maybe ~as certain as I was about you in the day 1 of mafia X. But yeah, don't support the Cuzz-lynch despite agreeing that the evidence sort of leads there - my gut just tells me he is town and I think in this case my gut is worth listening to. But, my reasons for listening to / not listening to my gut are AWFULLY results oriented, I do realize that.

[Eevee]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.

I absolutely 100% called for Cuzz's lynch after his "emotional extortion" in Eeveemafia. You really can not say "his emotional defenses are worth nothing" just because you read him horribly wrong in that game, because even though you and Volt did, I didn't fall for that in there and I don't think I'm falling for it in here. Cuzz, feel free to quote this and laugh at me at the end of the game if you are scum. I'm not super confident about this (as I explained earlier), but confident enough I oppose his lynch today.  I think he's different here, and I think my gutread on him sort of has some weightnot just because my gut is generally my strongest suit, but also because I have a record of reading Cuzz correctly (and yes I realize my sample size is laughable). Your reasons for dismissing my gut read are simply false - I've never misread his emotional defenses before. On the contrary, I've actually been right about him the one time I remember him using the emotional defense and my posts calling for his lynch and my subsequent vigging of him should be a proof of this.

[Eevee]

I just read back just to be sure about my meta read on Cuzz, and I'd like to clarify my position there. I do not think he is scummy, I think he is slightly towny. Not even close to the level of Dsell, but still easily towny enough for me to oppose his lynch today. This appeal to emotion felt sincere to me and his self meta arguments were the type I wouldn't expect scum to make, and again I did see scum-Cuzz's AtE for what it was in Eeveemafia so I'm inclined to trust my gut here maybe more than I should.

[Cuzz]

Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.

...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.

I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.

Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?

You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.

When have you seen town Cuzz go down without a fight? Honestly I'm not sure what example you're referring to there. Maaaaaaaybe XI but I got from L-2 to hammered whilst sleeping there, and you better believe I would not have rolled over had it been at a more reasonable hour.

And I appreciate the not wanting to be fooled aspect. But if you push my lynch here, then all you'll have accomplished is having been wrong not to vote me in XVI, and wrong to vote me here.

But again, you did not actually answer my question, nor the one from #691.

[Robz888]

on phone hold on cuzz

[Eevee]

Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.