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[shraeye]

Oh, I figured out the scum-read on shraeye.

He's voting Jimmmmm without a case. 

I'm pretty sure I was, maybe the case wasn't articulated well.

I made a long post regarding Eevee-related things, and Jimmm featured in that post, as he had been attacking Eevee. Robz featured as well, as he had stated reasons to be suspicious ofboth Eevee/Jimmmm, and I felt like his Eevee-reasons were meta-related, and his Jimmmm-reasons were fact-based.  So I was disappointed to see he voted Eevee, because I agreed with his Jimmm statements, which I'll quote here.

Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.

But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.

At the end of that Eevee-related post I also put down my own reasons for voting Jimmmm.

It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.

Robz, this is exactly how I read that too.  Between teh Eevee/Jimmm interaction, they both may have felt a little weird, but Jimmmm felt inherently scummy.  His original position seemed forced, the way he decreased suspicion bit-by-bit seemed staged, and now he "won't vote eevee".  ALL of his opinions regarding eevee seem completely manufactured.  I can't tell right now if that makes eevee more likely Jimmmm's partner, or town that Jimmm's trying to get credit from, but I'm very certain it makes Jimmmm scum.  I think he's a much better lynch than Eevee.

Vote: Jimmmmm

He's posted basically 3 things about Jimmmmm (he's posted some of them multiple times):
1. The Eevee contradiction problem.  Shraeye seems to believe "If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction."
This doesn't affect my scumread on Jimmm at all; it just looks like a clumsily-made case, and any alignment can do that.

2. Jimmmmm's 180 on Eevee, which Cuzz called out and Robz called out.  He agrees that this is more likely to be scum wanting to escape a bad argument than town wanting to escape a bad argument.  I felt a need to talk about point 1, because part of that is inherent in thinking that it was a totally contrived argument to begin with.
The 180 here is my main issue, but it doesn't rely on Jimmm's original argument being bad.  The entire point is the way that Jimmm backed down from the argument once it didn't seem to gain traction with tons of people (it did with some, but not with others).  It happened in stages, and it felt very mechanical.  Like "ok, I backed off some, now wait for a few more posts so I can 'reconsder' and turn this into a nullread.  Ok, now that it's a nullread, i can transition into a 'won't vote for eevee'.  It really felt like all of Jimmm's opinions on Eevee after his original case were completely disingenuous.

This is my stance, and it jives with my earlier statement that Jimmm wasn't trying to trick people with the Eevee-case.  I can believe he thought it had merit.  But the way he backed down from the case when people disliked it was what was scummy.


Oh, one other relevant comment (IMO) from shraeye:

...it never feels like a good case when people simply say "this person feels different".  Now if we talk about HOW they are playing differently, then that's a little more substance.
...

in context he's criticizing Robz for using a meta-argument against Eevee while using a straight-forward argument against Jimmmmm (the 180 thing).

The whole start of shraeye's suspicion of Jimmmmm was "he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person". (see quote above)
I don't throw away meta-arguments categorically.  There are certain ones I rely on, but I like to allow a player room to try different methods and to improve themselves.  For example Munch is trying to be less 300% confident in his reads, and some people have said that's scummy because it's against townMunch meta.  That's ridiculous, because you are encouraging people to continue bad play.  The other meta-argument that i dislike is something like "Eevee normally states he's town, and he hasn't yet."  This is an action that is easily copied if he's scum, and easily forgotten if he's town.  To base a case on this alone is not quality scumhunting.  My meta-argument on Jimmm is as follows

But I'm really not sold that Jimmm was trying to trick people.  I think he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person.

I see no reason why someone who is normally rational to stop acting that way, it's not a better way to play mafia in my opinion, and it's not an easy mistake for a normally rational person to start making bad arguments.  Like your case on me.  I don't think any of these arguments are bad arguments, I just think they're wrong, as I explained.  You are a very rational player, in my opinion.  If you had resorted to obviously badly contructed arguments or emotional appeals, I'd be suspicious.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure those are the dots my mind connected to conjure a scum-read on shraeye.  It could be a natural growth of a scum-read, but it just feels wrong.  It feels wrong that shraeye has posted several points of argument against Cuzz, with little against Jimmmmm.
I felt the need to say more about Cuzz, because nobody had presented arguments against Cuzz (except for Eevee's which I also thought were bad).  Other people had been making legitimate points against Jimmm, like Robz, so I felt his case needed less fleshing out.

Now, I'm still conflicted between Cuzz and Jimmm, and I think I'll have to reread both of them today to see where my vote is best.

[ashersky]

Can we all stop with the colors?  It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.

Also, colors are generally for mods.

Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.

[shraeye]

Can we all stop with the colors?  It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.

Also, colors are generally for mods.

Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.

My apologies, I was adopting SFS's style of responding to a case, within the case-quote itself.  I think it helps organize things a little bit, though it is visually jarring.  I really get upset when people have quotes in quotes in quotes in quotes, and start a huge multi-point debate.  The debate itself is fine, I'm just still searching for a way to visually organize the information so it's not painful to read.

[ashersky]

Can we all stop with the colors?  It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.

Also, colors are generally for mods.

Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.

My apologies, I was adopting SFS's style of responding to a case, within the case-quote itself.  I think it helps organize things a little bit, though it is visually jarring.  I really get upset when people have quotes in quotes in quotes in quotes, and start a huge multi-point debate.  The debate itself is fine, I'm just still searching for a way to visually organize the information so it's not painful to read.

So the red is new text in that quote?  I didn't read it since I wasn't sure.

[shraeye]

Yup, everything in red is my words

[Jimmmmm]

Something which occurred to me, and I don't think it's been discussed yet: is it worth coordinating our cops? Like saying "All cops investigate joth tonight", and if no one responds tomorrow (and we haven't lost a cop), then assume that probably means they all got a Town result on joth? (inb4 joth is the mod)

[Robz888]

Something which occurred to me, and I don't think it's been discussed yet: is it worth coordinating our cops? Like saying "All cops investigate joth tonight", and if no one responds tomorrow (and we haven't lost a cop), then assume that probably means they all got a Town result on joth? (inb4 joth is the mod)

That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it works. In your example, one of the scum teams would just kill Joth.

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?

[ashersky]

Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?

I mean, I guess we have a chance that we direct it at scum, and the other faction, if it exists, will kill anyway.  Thing is, if we choose town, the scum team(s) can just choose to kill anyone OTHER than the option and imagine they have a better chance of hitting a cop than not.

Plus, cops can be scum, so I don't know if it helps.

Yeah, I think directing cops won't work.

[Robz888]

Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?

No. But it would burn up the investigations, if they actually followed through and copped the person the scum killed. And that would be bad.

[ashersky]

Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?

No. But it would burn up the investigations, if they actually followed through and copped the person the scum killed. And that would be bad.

Also this.  If you really wanted to direct cop investigations in a good way, you'd choose three and assign one to each cop.

[yuma]

I have a lot of catching up to do, but I also have a lot of studying to do, so goal for end of tonight is to be fully caught up.

But one thought I had while sitting at my microscope this morning looking at blood cells is this: day 1 cases are rarely very good. In fact the few times we have lynched scum the case themselves have been pretty mediocre and somewhat lacking in content--I mean all day 1 cases are lacking in content to an extent, especially compared to day 2 and 3 cases. What really nailed the lid in the coffin on both Grujah and Lekkit were their reactions. So in my reread there are two things I am going to be looking for:

1. the reactions to cases on people

2. cases that people are building that are trying to make them more significant than they really are or have any right to be, ala ashersky on Frisk in MXV, or me on Cuzz  (although it was a bussing case) in MXIV.

[yuma]

That said, it is time for me to focus in on the people I have trouble reading. Theorel and Yuma are my assignments for tomorrow, because I honestly don't know if I could tell their scum play from their town play at a passing glance.

Tonight however, it's bed time.

Galz did you do this? What did you learn?

[yuma]

Case that are bigger than they have a right to be: (sorry I don't have post numbers, I mostly did this in Print Screen)

 - Robz's case on eevee (throughout the game). his vote started a long time ago (january 4) as was Jimmm's initial case on Eevee. Hmmm.... although i don't get the feeling from Robz's later eevee push.

- I also thought Jimmm's case on mcmc was pushing and trying to hard on the idea of him being "new to being town" and subsequent posts try to bring "evidence" that really doesn't amount to much.

- Cuzz's case on Eevee also appears to be trying to much and placing exaggerated importance. I know this contradicts myself earlier because at that time, just from the back and forth made me read Cuzz as town and Eevee more scummy, but in this new light of thinking I don't like this case as.

- Here I am going to contradict myself again, this time in regard to raerae's case on Jimmm. I initially liked it and voted for Jimmm partially based off it, as well as based off a bit from shraeye--although I had attributed everything to shraeye initially. But now raerae's case appears to me too big for its britches. It has a lot of content and is really trying to make something for itself. Whereas shraeye's case on Cuzz where he votes for him, but then revotes for Jimmm, is more alike to raerae's case on Jimmm. So for now I am going to unvote

- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.

(I actually don't mind Eevee's case on themunch in #601. yes it doesn't have a lot of substance, but I totally get that. It is Day 1 for crying out loud. There isn't much to go off, and certainly even less that is concerete. I don't understand the negative reaction it has produced.)

The weird part about this is that I typically look on these types of cases as pro-town. It is scum hunting right? And scumhunting is good. I don't want to be accused of preventing scumhunting, because I am not. These cases above could be genuine town building cases on those they think to be mafia. But these cases out of the rest appear to me to be more forced and could be the workings of scum. What do other people think? Especially those that were involved in the lynchings of Lekkit in MXVII and Grujah in MXI...

[Jimmmmm]

- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.

Can you explain this please? I think theorel's been saying he's got a slight Town read on me.

[Robz888]

Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.

Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.

Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.

[Cuzz]

Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.

Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.

Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.

I was phone browsing a different thread, and didn't see your question. I've fallen a page or two behind on this game again, unfortunately.

And I'd be pretty annoyed, mostly because barring any other ongoing games, this is my first town role in a while, and I've been really trying to not lurk and explain my views thoroughly which have been issues for me in the past.

What do you hope to glean from my response to that question?

[Cuzz]

Regarding current situations:
I agree that defensive Cuzz can be scummy Cuzz.  Certainly a big part of what I found suspicious about him as SK in XVII.  However part of that was also his non-participation when not suspected.  It's hard to determine if this is the same without some period of people not accusing Cuzz (other than the initial weekend).  I think he's a bad lynch until we have the chance to hear more from him.  I think town often get accused of being overly defensive when they're being constantly accused (this is why I've generally disagreed with the idea that pressure helps identify scum).  scumScore: 32.

I have to look back and see if I agree that Cuzz has been defensive, because defensive Cuzz is scum!Cuzz. This has held very true. In M-XII, I don't think he really got too defensive or anything when I repeatedly pressed for him, and he was town. Nor was he defensive at all when I got him mislynched in Blitzwhatever (6 or 7 or something? I was IC, scum Insomniac, shraeye and Munch won). However, he defended himself quite forcefully in M-XVI, and ultimately, we didn't lynch him. Town Vigs had to double-shoot him to get him killed, and he indeed flipped scum.

I'm trying not to rely on metas, but this seems like a more reliable one than most.

I was emotionally defensive in that game. I tried to guilt and manipulate people into not lynching me based on a "I'm sorry for making you suspect me! I'm town and I don't want to make us lose!" type of plea. I feel like my defensiveness in this game was based on a point-by-point rebuttal of what I thought were inaccurate positions taken against me. And if people think my defensiveness was over the top, it's because I was astounded by just how inaccurate I found some of these positions to be.

I don't necessarily want to get into a huge Cuzz-meta discussion though. I've tried to switch it up every time I've been scum, so I doubt it's helpful for me or anyone else to overanalyze it in this game. I haven't been town in a while either, so comparing to early town games of mine when I was new and sucked (more so I mean) at this game is maybe also misleading.

[Cuzz]

And you saying meta arguments about me is a "more reliable one than most" is funny. You used meta arguments about me to help convince Volt I was town in XVI!

[Cuzz]

I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!

[Cuzz]

Sorry, I'm being obnoxious and unhelpful. I will refute the case, as well as give my thoughts on other viable cases later tonight. But for now it's time to catch up on Top Chef with the gf.

[yuma]

The following players have received votes:

Cuzz - shareye's case on Cuzz elicited a pretty big response and one that made Cuzz reacted to strongly. I feel that this reaction is town. TheMunch says he overreacted, and I kinda agree, but I read that as town, not scum

themunch/sparky - themunch's reaction to Eevee's vote is interesting because it is meta based. Which I suppose is appropriate because eevee's case is rather meta based. Along with however was a defense of Eevee's vote on him in response to ash. I feel like this could be buddying, but is so obvious that I don't want to think that it is. What was it you say about obvious play Robz?

shraeye - his initial lack of response to theorel's case actually seemed more town to me. scum!shraeye I think would have jumped up and fought, he later did respond in a way that wasn't conventional shraeye, but shraeye seems to be playing a different game, which I am still wary off, but ok with.

Jimmm -  Jimm's reaction to mcmc reads scum to me. I know that this isn't exactly the same, but it feels the same way as when Lekkit reacted toward IC-raerae in MXVII. Yes I know that mcmc isn't an IC. But both reacted in somewhat of a hostile way, a defensive, guard up sort of way. I don't understand his emotional appeal about his eevee case. It feels deflective, as if he is trying to move the topic of conversation away from something he doesn't want to discuss. the emotion behind it doesn't make sense to me. Someone said they felt Jimm's vote on mcmc was a deflective vote. I can't remember who said that, whoever said that, what made you think that

mcmc - had an ok reaction to my early vote, and a good reaction to Jimmm

eevee - Only thing I don't like here was eevee saying that he felt like he would have to claim at some point today... actually I don't mind that at all on second thought. Reminds me of me in the early days of MXI.

robz - I think he only had the one vote and don't remember how he reacted, if at all to it.

ashersky - I feel like I am pretty good at reading ash as I have modded two games with him in it, played with him as scum and picked him out as scum day 1 the other game.  I can't remember this vote either... but ash has seemed very town to me. I might suggest that he is one of my larger town reads.

raerae - reacted just like I thought raerae would react to it, so good here.

[yuma]

- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.

Can you explain this please? I think theorel's been saying he's got a slight Town read on me.

hmmm that should say theorel's case on shraeye I believe. sorry.

[yuma]

at this juncture the name that pops up on both of my lists and is the most significant is still Jimmm. So I am going to go back to that and vote: Jimmm.

However, if not Jimmm I think we need to look elsewhere. I don't really like our other "options" in Eevee, mcmc or shraeye.

[Dsell]

I am, again, not caught up, but I reiterate that I strongly disagree with a Jimmmmm lynch.