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[Eevee]

To me ashersky's overconfidence in his reads is just far more of an antitown move than anything raerae ever did or didn't do.

[Galzria]

Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?

[jotheonah]

Dr. Bashir and Garak sit down for their regular morning breakfast.

"So Doctor, am I mistaken or have I noticed more men in uniform patrolling the promenade this morning? I hope nothing's amiss."

"Oh, I'm sure we'll muddle through somehow, Garak."

"Well if there's any ... tailoring I can assist you with, I trust you'll let me know. I'm always... happy to help."

Vote Count 1.7

Eevee (2): Robz888, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (1): liopoil
sparky5856 (1): theorel
Cuzz (1): Galzria
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): yuma
ashersky (1): Glooble

Not Voting (7): shraeye, mcmcsalot, raerae, sparky5856, Cuzz, Dsell, Eevee


With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.

[Eevee]

Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?

Fwiw, I never meant to imply you being busy in IRL was scummy, but rather that the need to announce it in such a situation felt like an emotional reaction I get when scum.

[Eevee]

Either Jimm and Robz are doublevoters or there is a mistake in the vote count. 

[jotheonah]

RIght you are, I'm going to just edit it, so as not to clutter it up too much.

[liopoil]

I'm not really seeing the case too well on raerae, or ashersky for that matter.

What do IIOA and PPE stand for?

[theorel]

information instead of analysis (stating information but not offering analysis is a way for scum to seem like they're contributing without actually contributing)

pre-post edit.  (editing before posting due to noticing the replies before you hit post)

[mcmcsalot]

Yuma, I did not turn on the eevee wagon as soon as I saw it going nowhere, I still believe eevee is somewhat scummy, I simply felt like jimm forced his case in a way I did not like. Forcing a case seems like a scum trait to me.

As far as raerae goes she seems exactly like town raerae from ZMIX, there is a reason we got town to mislynch her D1, she seems scummy in her normal play. While I agree she could replicate that as scum, I don't think its a good argument against her.

[ashersky]

Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?

Fwiw, I never meant to imply you being busy in IRL was scummy, but rather that the need to announce it in such a situation felt like an emotional reaction I get when scum.

Nailed it.  Raerae's dodge is this.  Being busy, doing other things, IRL are not scummy.  The way her post called me an idiot then disappeared instead of saying why was the scummy part of it.

I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return).  Don't kill me while I'm away, please.

Classic scum dodge.

sometimes you are a jerk. perhaps raerae, and the rest of us as well, should all plan our regular lives around your mafia cases on us. When are you free for you to suspect me, my calendar is a bit busy, but I am sure we can work out a time for you to be suspicious of me too...

Or perhaps you once again just have blinders on. Once you decide they are scum, they are scum. Case closed. If only you were right more than 37.5% correct lynch rate that you currently have going

This is clearly a personal attack, and against the golden rule of this game.  Calling me a jerk?  Laughable.

Check your stats and see how many times I have been scum and not scum.  You all love to mislynch me.  Folks asked for less self-pity, so I'm just embracing it.  I will make bold statements instead of hedging.  I will back up my reads with votes.  If that makes me a jerk, ask the mod to modkill me or replace me.  Otherwise, just play the game, man.  What did I do to you?

[theorel]

@ashersky/yuma: I think you guys should both step away and cool off a bit.

[ashersky]

To me ashersky's overconfidence in his reads is just far more of an antitown move than anything raerae ever did or didn't do.

The fact that you know it's overconfidence should help you temper then when including them in your own analysis.

Take TheMunch for example--he's a classic overconfident reader.  We know that and take it into account.

[ashersky]

Also, Yuma was correct that I incorrectly used him as an example of raerae not providing content.  He was in fact posting more around the same time.

I should have said sparky.  Or Glooble.  They've both lurked, I think.  It is the weekend, though.

[ashersky]

I'm not really seeing the case too well on raerae, or ashersky for that matter.

I can speak to my case on raerae--it's weak to middling at best, but it's early D1.  Gotta start somewhere.  That's probably why you aren't really seeing it.

Also, it's highly meta based, which is always tougher on newer folks.

[ashersky]

Yuma, I did not turn on the eevee wagon as soon as I saw it going nowhere, I still believe eevee is somewhat scummy, I simply felt like jimm forced his case in a way I did not like. Forcing a case seems like a scum trait to me.

As far as raerae goes she seems exactly like town raerae from ZMIX, there is a reason we got town to mislynch her D1, she seems scummy in her normal play. While I agree she could replicate that as scum, I don't think its a good argument against her.

Mom salon is sounding towny here.  Generally speaking, "I did that as scum before" arguments is second-level scum play.  No offense mom salon, but probably not pulling it unless you're veteran scum partners coached.

[ashersky]

I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.

Ok but in my experience, Ashersky's read's are LARGELY based on his "superior" meta reads. I can listen to points he makes about specific points, but I don't trust a confident Ashersky early in the game.

That's fair.

[Eevee]

ashersky, sounds like you are proud about getting mislynched that often. It's twisted. Getting yourself lynched as town is very bad play!

Also, lets play nice everyone. I too thought your tone was a tad hostile, ashersky. No reason to resort into personal attacks, though.

[ashersky]

ashersky, sounds like you are proud about getting mislynched that often. It's twisted. Getting yourself lynched as town is very bad play!

Also, lets play nice everyone. I too thought your tone was a tad hostile, ashersky. No reason to resort into personal attacks, though.

Where was I hostile to Yuma before he called me a jerk?

Proud to be mislynched?  You make it sound like every time I've been mislynched, it is my fault.  Classic to blame the victim.  Whether you can read me well or not is up to you.

I made a case on someone.  If someone else would like to do the same, that would be helpful.  Theo posted a list of thoughts on everyone.  That's helpful.  Not a lot of people have said enough to be analyzed.

[Jimmmmm]

I think I should put in my (possible) last word on the contradiction case. I have to admit that it's not nearly as strong as I thought it was. If as Eevee says, he wouldn't have wanted to get unfair town cred, then being here before joth would have put him in a very awkward position, since saying "I'm not going to answer that because I shouldn't get the Town cred" might make it seem like he didn't know the answer. His saying that things would have been worse if he had been given the chance to do this seems like it could fit. I'm not really sure anymore how I feel about Eevee, going to have to re-read him again.

Galz, you said a couple of times that my case on Eevee had merit. What are your thoughts now?

[theorel]

In rereading raerae, I disagree with one basic point about ashersky's case.  I don't think that raerae's questions were IIoA.
When she asks if ashersky is openly sheeping Jimmmm's Eevee-contradiction case, that's analysis not information.  She may be essentially offering you an out in the same moment that she criticizes your play, but that doesn't mean it isn't a criticism of what she sees as scummy behavior.

However, she did take a while to finally comment on the contradiction case.  Now, there are two parts to this:
1. It was after ashersky's "coaching".  Which was more of a criticism of the "prove it" post than anything.  In fact he even notes that she can ask questions.  At no point in his "coaching" do I see him criticize raerae's lack of taking stands as the scummy part, rather her "giving orders".  I (personally) think this significantly weakens the point that she only took a stand after being criticized for looking scummy.

2. It was just after shraeye had commented on it to the same effect.  He claimed to not have seen the contradiction argument.  Now, maybe raerae didn't see it either?  But she had quoted it (in particular when she questioned ashersky's sheeping of it).  However, she only took a stand on "it's clearly not a contradiction" after shraeye already did.

The end result here, is that I'm finding raerae a little scummy there.  I think this largely played into my previous analysis where I mentioned the intertwining of shraeye and raerae.

I'll also note posts at 215/216.  In this instance raerae has the same reaction as shraeye within like 11 minutes of each other.
Personally I was inclined to view both of these as more raerae/shraeye thinking similarly.  BUT, they are the only stands she's taken where she didn't ask questions.  AND, as noted she had plenty of time to have that reaction to the contradiction case before shraeye did, but did not.  I could see a raerae is scum shraeye is town situation here...I'm not sold, but I'm happy to put raerae into the minor suspicion category for now.

[Galzria]

I think I should put in my (possible) last word on the contradiction case. I have to admit that it's not nearly as strong as I thought it was. If as Eevee says, he wouldn't have wanted to get unfair town cred, then being here before joth would have put him in a very awkward position, since saying "I'm not going to answer that because I shouldn't get the Town cred" might make it seem like he didn't know the answer. His saying that things would have been worse if he had been given the chance to do this seems like it could fit. I'm not really sure anymore how I feel about Eevee, going to have to re-read him again.

Galz, you said a couple of times that my case on Eevee had merit. What are your thoughts now?

I thought that your case was a whole lot more of an actual attempt to find scum then it appeared Robz' case was. I think that I made my general feelings on Eevee clear Reykjavik (erm, that's an autocorrect for relatively apparently. One that I'm leaving in because I've NO clue what it is (capital R suggests proper name? Aaaanyway...))) early.

I'll find the quote in a minute, but basically I don't see him as being Town!Eevee per se, but... I just saw scum!Eevee as recently as yesterday in Blitz-IX, and I pegged him as scum after his very first post. More than that though, as the game went on I picked up on the apathetic nature of Eevee's play that made me so sure he was scum by the end of D2 - and that is that anytime a case was made against him, or really against anybody, he had a "Eh, whatever, sure" attitude. He wasn't... Trying to win, as it were - at least not the way a townie, and in particular town!Eevee would be doing in lylo.

Reading him here, I don't find the "misteps" that you've seen to be a town or scum tell. I think Eevee of either alignment would do those things. But his overall feel has not at ALL been the same as the Eevee of yesterday, and I don't think he could have such a snap change in behavior.

Anyway, will find post from earlier, hold on.

[Galzria]

Post #170

Eevee does not seem like town Eevee in this game. But everyone reacts differently when there is a case built on them, especially early. I am not super convinced by Jimmmm's contradiction case, though I'm gonna go over it again. It certainly seems possible that townEevee was just accidentally digging a deeper hole with that one. I'm just not sure.

I actually think, given Eevee's response, that he DOES feel more like town!Eevee here.

Actually, that's not right. He doesn't feel like Town!Eevee, but he really doesn't feel like scum!Eevee. I don't at all see the same play that I saw in ZM-IX as recently as yesterday. In that game, I got the constant feeling since his very first post of that he wasn't trying. It wasn't just apathy, it was something more, something deeper. When D2 hit and we had lynced town D1, he wasn't jumping up and down screaming to be heard. He was much more mellow and laid back. <-- And I think that's what I've been searching for. Scum!Eevee, while certainly more of a "cares-less-Eevee" gives off a "Eh, whatever" vibe. Here, Eevee made a mistake, but I don't get that same mellow and laid back feeling from his responses.

I guess it's an emotional read. Things like saying "town" instead of "station-aligned" are such complete null-tells. It's something that Scum!Eevee would do, and it's something that Town!Eevee would do. His responses since have seemed really scattered (which is what Jimm has picked up on). This is honestly more a Town!Eevee trait than Scum!Eevee though, and Eevee's responses since have definitely felt far from his scum meta - on a level that's hard to genuinely fake.

[Eevee]

Reykjavik is the capital of Iceland.  Right here in my hoods!

[Jimmmmm]

I voted for Eevee to see how he would respond to the pressure, and maybe someone who's better at meta arguments than I am can weigh in as well, but I haven't seen anything all that scummy about his response. He's responded to several points as necessary but hasn't focussed too much on his defense (I'm thinking of Lekkit in Major Arcana II), and has continued to look at cases on other people. So while I'm certainly not giving Eevee the all-clear, I'm willing to Unvote.

However, I would like to hear some thoughts on this:

I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this.

This reeks of the Robz "yes I can see why you think that's scummy" strategy, which could come from Town or scum. Anyone who knows Eevee better than I do, is Town Eevee likely to say something like this?

[yuma]

Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?

since I can't remember it, apparently I didn't notice it when it happened. When did this occur?