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[Eevee]

If the game wasn't completely balanced, it was certainly within the realm of balanced. Things did come down as close as they possible could.

[justtoflame]you considered a 16 player game with 3+3 mafia and a sk (and a VT who knew how many vt's there are in the game!) so ridiculously unbalanced it shouldnt count for any rankings, but this 15 player game with 3+3 scum was just fine? [/justtoflame]

Seriously though, actual playing of this game wasn't much for me personally, no one listened or cared about my cuzz-defense and then day2 my lurking was punished with a lynch while I was asleep (Robz was scum so I'm blaming ash who asked him to do it. what the hell dude, I said I'm going to sleep for 8 hours and be back then and you lynch me after 6 hours!? This time my claim likely wouldn't have mattered but come on!!), but watching Robz go back, forth and back again was very entertaining. it's awesome how intense these games can get!

well played all and thanks for the game, mods! Robz for mvp imo.

[ashersky]

If the game wasn't completely balanced, it was certainly within the realm of balanced. Things did come down as close as they possible could.

[justtoflame]you considered a 16 player game with 3+3 mafia and a sk (and a VT who knew how many vt's there are in the game!) so ridiculously unbalanced it shouldnt count for any rankings, but this 15 player game with 3+3 scum was just fine? [/justtoflame]

+1000000000

[Robz888]

the powers in that game were way more insane though.

[Eevee]

the powers in that game were way more insane though.

They were, for all sides.

[yuma]

I actually felt that the lack of VT or goons in this game made it harder for scum. But I suppose it was also in a way harder from town... but I was scum so I just look at things from a scummy perspective.

Because I would have much preferred to claim VT over the horrible 1-shot LR.

Oh and joth. I think it was balanced enough as well. I would say more balanced than Arcana II--sorry eevee--because here town made far worse mistakes. Town had three mislynches in Cuzz, Eevee and Dsell and didn't use night actions effectively at all. I don't think a single town action made any impact on the game. Switch a couple of those things (a positive investigation, a doc save or one more correct lynch) and town probably would have won the game. In Arcana, town only mislynched once.

And I didn't mean to imply that I didn't have fun in this game. I had lots of fun. Lots of frustration as well. Not wanting to play in multiscum had nothing to do with this game specifically, but just about multiscum in general as I think it tends to greatly increase the variance and I just enjoy that a little less from both sides of the coin.

[theorel]

Y'know I don't really think the game was unbalanced at all.  The "balance" problem to me is that town had no CONTROL.

Basically in a good balanced game (IMO) town should get about 2 mislynches.  (this can be more or less depending on PRs, and can grow/shrink depending on how well the town PRs/scum PRs do).

In this game, town had 0 mislynches.  That's a problem.
Now, we actually lost after 3 mislynches (which I would argue is balanced), BUT scum missed 3 town-aligned NKs (Galz, Munch, and double-killing shraeye...I'm not counting Dsell's double-life here).
That means that each mislynch that town could live through required a mis-kill by scum.  In other words, town could only stay in the game due to scum choices.  (actually a good vig-shot by Eevee could have gotten us back into the game).

Here's how town can win the game without help from scum
(15: 3v3v9)
Town lynch MU day1
2 town die N1
(12: 2v3v7)
Town lynch MU day2
2 town die N2
(9: 1v3v5)
Town lynch MU day3
1 town die N3
(7: 3v4)
Town lynch Maquis each following day, and die at night.
End result: town wins!

Any mislynch, and town loses in the above scenario.
Scum had to kill scum for town to have a reasonable chance of winning (I would argue requiring all successful lynches is unreasonable).  Now, is requiring scum to help town to win imbalanced?  Not necessarily.  Technically if town knows they're out of the game after a mislynch, that means that scum needs to work to keep town in the game as otherwise their incentive to lynch the opposing team is reduced, and hence it's harder for scum to win (unless they have an advantage over the other team).  At some point the game is so lost it doesn't matter what town does and hence they no-lynch and scum has to NK each other.
It's interesting, and could arguably be balanced, but I think it wouldn't be fun to play town in that game (i.e. with the knowledge that I needed to depend on scum to keep me in the game).

[jotheonah]

Yeah, it has to be Robz. The gutsy claim to save his partner, a lot of good Robzing at the end (that's my word for talking your way out of overwhelming evidence against you), generally doing an admirable job of figuring out what was going on.

THere's a Google doc, but I stopped updating the spreadsheet halfway through when all the 1-shots were used up and I could track everything in my head.

It also contains everyone's PMs though, so it's worth posting:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LvNIX_TE7YqliYQhs9SVh7S8ADWvDzv_hzcWOpC5ymQ/edit?usp=sharing

And here's the abandoned night action tracker:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjYIb0xGWh6ydEJCVHprbVN5RUdBQ1RlMEhhc0ZEMmc&usp=sharing

[jotheonah]

So my goal in the game was to

A) Create a game that would feel like role madness without being insane by giving everyone a small power
B) Create a flavor-based game where flavor-claiming conveyed no scum-hunting advantage, without the need for fakeclaims
C) Create a game with a lot of cop investigations, yet where the cops wouldn't be game-breakingly strong
D) I liked the ambiguity factor of nobody knowing at first whether they were dealing with two scum teams or an SK and a scum team.

I think that was all pretty successful. The problem is that I got caught up in the high level planning and didn't notice the basic discrepancy, that 6/15 is pretty different then 4/15 (the other possible setup). Probably setting it up with a 3-person and a 2-person scum team would have been an option, but than I couldn't have assigned the roles randomly. The best option probably would have been to just recruit more people. If I'd run this with 17 or 18 and 6 scum, that would have been just fine, and I could have upped the scum team to 4 members if the SK rolled.

If I ran this again, I would have just made Jimmmmm a 1-shot doctor. Town didn't need any extra negative utility.

CHaracters I wanted to include but didn't (and could have if I'd run the larger version) and some possibilities for their role:

Gul Dukat, double voter
Leeta, beloved (takes an extra vote to lynch)
Morn, true VT (this would be the ultimate troll role)
Tora Ziyal, hated
Vic Fontaine, i have no idea what game mechanic would make sense for a singing hologram

[TheMunch]

Yuma for MVP.  No question.  Pulling off the LR claims was tremendous.  Then the ballsy play of "we're both scum, lio, you choose who wins" for sure gets him MVP.  No offense to Robz, but I dont think he did anything especially MVP worth to reign in the W for his team.  Like he even said, he got to watch the scum he knew existed walk himself into a corner.  Robz didn't win, everyone else lost.

[jotheonah]

But yuma made a big misstep - no killing that last night. If he had shot Robz he would have won the game.

[liopoil]

it wasn't that "you choose who wins". If I no lynch I win. Since Yuma claimed scum my only choice was if I though robz was a 6th scum.

Yuma was in a similar situation to me last night. He thought he was the only scum.

[liopoil]

I'm not in any mafia games anymore!

[ashersky]

I'm not in any mafia games anymore!

PM Archetype -- he needs a replacement for BMX.

[liopoil]

I'm in the speccy QT though and I have setup info.

[yuma]

But yuma made a big misstep - no killing that last night. If he had shot Robz he would have won the game.

That is true, but I don't consider it to be a misstep as it was the correct play with the information that I had been given.

If Robz wasn't scum I would have shot him and ended up being lynched by Jimmmm and lio. Maybe I should have deduced that there was another scum out there beside me, but I think that would have been guess work at best.

[yuma]

And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...

Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.

[ashersky]

And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...

Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.

Bus driver is scummy.  LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.

I think a faker fake claim would have been best.  I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real.  You could have come with anything.

[yuma]

And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...

Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.

Bus driver is scummy.  LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.

I think a faker fake claim would have been best.  I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real.  You could have come with anything.

Oh I know that.... that was my biggest failing of the game honestly. But there were a couple of contributing factors. 1. I was pretty early in the claiming scheme. 2. I had planned throughout the game to claim Maquis cop. This was partially why I had strong town reads on both you and lio throughout the game, but when Themunch was NK I had to abandon that plan as it would have been suicidal to claim cop at that point. 3. After Themunch died my creativity died with him and I was scrambled and couldn't come up with anything better.... Really I should hav claimed JK. That would have been best.

[ashersky]

And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...

Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.

Bus driver is scummy.  LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.

I think a faker fake claim would have been best.  I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real.  You could have come with anything.

Oh I know that.... that was my biggest failing of the game honestly. But there were a couple of contributing factors. 1. I was pretty early in the claiming scheme. 2. I had planned throughout the game to claim Maquis cop. This was partially why I had strong town reads on both you and lio throughout the game, but when Themunch was NK I had to abandon that plan as it would have been suicidal to claim cop at that point. 3. After Themunch died my creativity died with him and I was scrambled and couldn't come up with anything better.... Really I should hav claimed JK. That would have been best.

The hilarious thing is, when you were my secret partner in Noir, your fake claim WAS JK.

Did you think I was the Marquis cop early on?

[yuma]

Not at all. Night 3 the choices to kill were dsell or theorel. Obviously theorel would have been a better choice, but you weren't ever considered because you had the potential to be a mislynch down the road.

Themunch was pretty convinced shraeye was a cop (well once we saw what themunch saw we all were). I think the takeaway from that is that more often than not cop drops are less likely to be cops than VT or someone trying to absorb a night kill.

[Ozle]

You could easily have claimed Bus Driver, roles were assigned randomly

[jotheonah]

WOuld people have enjoyed this game more if the entire setup were known beforehand (all the roles, all the characters, but not which role went with which alignment). I wanted to do it that way, but I was concerned theorel or someone would work out a gamebreaking strategy given all that information.

No mod wants their game breaked.

[Jimmmmm]

When trying to figure out if it was at all possible that lio was a Godfather, I regretted not asking for a list of possible roles at the start of the game.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, while you're here, you said that I was an f.ds guinea pig in having the BP role. Conclusions?

[Galzria]

I think we've had it before actually.... Just not in anything other than a BM game (Maybe RMM? Don't think so though).

And even then I don't think it activated. :sadface: