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Author Topic: Online Innovation  (Read 43232 times)

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2013, 09:15:05 am »
0

I haven't yet played since my failed attempt to collaborate with someone on working out the interface, but I thought I saw an icon tracker that keeps count of your opponents' icons. Would it be easy to train yourself to check the icons? You can compare your own in the same way, right?

Yes, there is a convenient chart showing how many of each icon each player has.

I was so happy to see that the color icons for the cards were added (I can finally tell blue from purple!), so I wouldn't be a fan of adding more color differentiation tests, especially between red and green.  :-\
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Kuildeous

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2013, 09:37:10 am »
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It doesn't have to be color-coded necessarily. Those that would benefit from it could be italicized while those who suffer from your demands are bolded.

Or underlined.

Or has a little arrow appear by the name.

Any little distinguishing marks, really. If it's too busy with color, there are other ways.

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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2013, 10:31:18 am »
0

One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.

Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead.  I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work?  :D
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Kirian

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2013, 10:38:44 am »
0

One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.

Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead.  I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work?  :D

There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.

Also... 9.0.1???  How far behind is your workplace?
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Ozle

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2013, 10:47:17 am »
+4

One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.

Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead.  I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work?  :D

There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.

Also... 9.0.1???  How far behind is your workplace?

He's a Lawyer, everything they do is validated with examples from the past....
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2013, 11:00:37 am »
0

One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.

Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead.  I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work?  :D

There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.

Sweet, thanks.

Quote
Also... 9.0.1???  How far behind is your workplace?

Listen, I just got upgraded from Firefox 3 in December 2011.  I'm grateful for whatever I can get.
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2013, 01:48:14 pm »
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile).  I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback due to this :(
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cluckyb

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2013, 02:10:55 pm »
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile).  I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback due to this :(

If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2013, 02:11:50 pm »
+3

While we're making suggestions, you need to implement a swear filter so that I don't have to be subjected to naughty words like "mountain," "Sega," and especially "boogie." Please protect my innocent ears because I don't want to be responsible for what online content I can see.
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2013, 02:15:29 pm »
0

Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile).  I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback due to this :(

If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.

Maybe the better way to put it would be to prompt: "What do you want to meld first", as opposed to "What do you want to meld".  I didn't realize that Classification wanted me to meld two cards, just thought it wanted one to meld.
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cluckyb

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2013, 05:10:22 pm »
0

Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile).  I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback due to this :(

If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.

Oh okay, yeah that makes sense. It should show you the dogma effect in a red rectangle at the top right of your screen, but its really easy to miss that.
Maybe the better way to put it would be to prompt: "What do you want to meld first", as opposed to "What do you want to meld".  I didn't realize that Classification wanted me to meld two cards, just thought it wanted one to meld.


oooh. looks like doug added a warning icon that appears when you hover over a card whose dogma effect the another player can share. nice touch
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 05:34:38 pm by cluckyb »
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timchen

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2013, 04:05:35 am »
0

Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...

After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.

That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2013, 08:01:18 am »
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After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that chess is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.

 ???

Maybe I'm just biased because I like Innovation so much.
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2013, 02:53:13 pm »
0

Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...

After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.

That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!

It's very dangerous to draw this conclusion from AI's.  Try playing on Isotropic.
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timchen

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2013, 04:06:25 pm »
0

Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...

After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.

That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!

It's very dangerous to draw this conclusion from AI's.  Try playing on Isotropic.
It's also dangerous to comment this without playing with that AI! Try that!

(I've tried playing on Isotropic.)
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TheMunch

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2013, 05:25:40 pm »
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So I am currently wavering, after playing a few games of innovation on isotropic (Dougz you are the man), between innovation being a great game and an incredibly luck based game.  I feel like there has to be something I'm missing.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2013, 05:28:32 pm »
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I think Innovation is a great game. Yes, there's the luck inherent in a shared deck of unique cards, but there are other great games that share that. (Race for the Galaxy, for one.) I don't think Innovation hits exactly the same demographic as Dominion does, even though they're both card games, but I'm okay with that.
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popsofctown

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2013, 06:45:05 pm »
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I'm experiencing a bit of diminishing returns with innovation.  Hopefully I can find something to grasp to soon.
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cluckyb

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2013, 07:09:33 pm »
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Innovation is far less replayable than Dominion. Its fun to build up your board, experience the higher level dogma effects, and play every once in a while but its not the kind of game you want to play several games in a row of or even more than a couple of times a week.
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2013, 07:15:15 pm »
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What I like about Innovation is the tactical considerations, something you don't get in Dominion.  I find a cool new tactical trick (like Fermented Bicycles) about four or five times per game.
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popsofctown

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2013, 07:42:33 pm »
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In what sense is something like Fermented Bicycles good design though?  I mean, if I flip a Fermentation and a Bicycle in the same game, yeah, I'm probably going to notice the relationship.  What makes that fun?  You're not putting any sort of skill to the limit seeing something like that.

I'm not sure if the appeal you're referring to is the Timmy sort of joy of getting to exercise such a powerful effect, which I would expect to have diminishing returns, or if you think that finding 2 card combos is an interesting game mechanic (perhaps you either disagree that Fermented Bicycles is obvious or Fermented Bicycles isn't an ideal example, but one you could grab)

Like, subtler combos are what makes things interesting.  And the tactics, of which there is a lot.

I think I'm having a bittersweet experience with it because it seems like the lower ages are better designed than the higher ages.  I'm not whipping out some sort of golden rule about "win the game" effects, I think they can be good, but just in general the 9's and 10's feel kind of unstable to me.
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popsofctown

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2013, 07:50:36 pm »
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To be clear, I don't think Timmy-style enjoyment is "more legitimate" or "less legitimate" than any other, my only point was that if that's the kind of appeal the combos bring, you could generalize the statement somewhat to include 9's and 10's
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theory

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2013, 12:28:18 pm »
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I like it because it's the joy of discovering something new, you know?  Fermenting/Bicycle is not an immediately obvious combo, especially since Fermenting is not typically such big drawing card.

It's a little bit like RFTG, where the game is trying to figure out what combos you can make with what you have.

OTOH I think the 9's and 10's are deliberately designed to be very unstable, and the game is intended to provide that kind of wacky ending if you get that high up.
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shraeye

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2013, 01:29:51 pm »
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I mean, if I flip a Fermentation and a Bicycle in the same game, yeah, I'm probably going to notice the relationship.

Could somebody with knowledge drop it here?  What does Fermentation do?  What does Bicycle do?  Where can I find a database of cards?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Online Innovation
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2013, 02:14:26 pm »
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Could somebody with knowledge drop it here?  What does Fermentation do?  What does Bicycle do?  Where can I find a database of cards?

Fermentation's an age 2 yellow that lets you draw a [2] for every 2 leaves on your board.

Bicycle's an age 7 green that lets you exchange your hand with your score pile.

I wish I knew of a database of cards, though. I just remember those ones.
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