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Author Topic: The Power of Vineyard  (Read 6090 times)

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werothegreat

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The Power of Vineyard
« on: December 27, 2012, 12:41:30 pm »
+1

So I played an IRL game with a friend yesterday, involving Rats, Familiar and Vineyard.  My opponent ignored Potion (as did I, at first), and went right for Provinces.  He had about four, at which point, seeing a reshuffle impending, I bought two Potions.  With them I bought three Vineyards before the game ended.  Each Vineyard was worth 7 points, allowing me a narrow win.

I think more than any other alternate Victory kingdom card, Vineyard has the potential to outshine Provinces.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 01:15:46 pm »
0

Well, Colony outshines Province pretty often too, but other than that, Vineyards is for sure the most powerful alt VP card. While others can technically get as high in value, it's often not as practical as doing it with Vineyards. And the price point also makes it much harder to deny if you're not going Vineyards yourself.
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Frosted

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 01:29:11 pm »
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Vineyard is the highest potential VP card in the game* and should be treated accordingly.
University on the board almost automatically makes Vineyard the preferred win condition for me.
Haggler, Festival, Border Village, (Grand) Market, and Peddler also make Vineyard looks pretty smexy.


*: Right? If you're playing a YW board and finish by buying all piles and all 10 Kingdom piles are actions besides Vineyard that's 10 copies of 10 Actions = 100 Actions for 33 Points each.
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michaeljb

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 01:41:16 pm »
0

Vineyard is the highest potential VP card in the game* and should be treated accordingly.
University on the board almost automatically makes Vineyard the preferred win condition for me.
Haggler, Festival, Border Village, (Grand) Market, and Peddler also make Vineyard looks pretty smexy.


*: Right? If you're playing a YW board and finish by buying all piles and all 10 Kingdom piles are actions besides Vineyard that's 10 copies of 10 Actions = 100 Actions for 33 Points each.

I believe with proper Black Market/Young Witch/etc shenanigans Fairgrounds can be worth more. That said, it's not realistic for anyone to ever actually buy Vineyard/Fairgrounds worth the maximum possible value.

Actually Silk Road beats Vineyard--10 piles, all victory cards, buy 11 of each, plus the 11 each of Estate/Duchy/Province/Colony, plus 1 each of the 3 piles that run out is 39 points per Silk Road. ( (11*14 + 3)/4 = 39.25 ) But again, you'll never feasibly buy it for that worth...but that reminds me you've actually underscored Vineyard's max worth, since Nobles/Great Hall/Island have 12 copies and still boost it.

Anyway, yeah alt VP can be pretty powerful.
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Kuildeous

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 01:54:35 pm »
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*: Right? If you're playing a YW board and finish by buying all piles and all 10 Kingdom piles are actions besides Vineyard that's 10 copies of 10 Actions = 100 Actions for 33 Points each.

With Rats, that could be 36 points each.

Also, there are 12 Great Halls, 12 Islands, and 12 Nobles, so you could actually have 116 action cards in your deck at 38 points.

((Insert Black Market caveat))
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achmed_sender

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2012, 02:00:29 pm »
0

But still, Fairgrounds is $6, so it's obvious that in "normal" games, you reach more points than a $4 vp card.
And in case of silk roads, you get problems with that huge amount of vp cards (when not Harem, Nobles, Great Halls or also Tunnels in some games)
Vineyards' action cards in opposite doesnt really block you :)

Ok, when vineyard is the only potion card, its sometimes nearly as diffult as Fairground to get, but when not...
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Frosted

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2012, 02:03:57 pm »
+1

The main hindrance to Vineyards is that you can't run the pile down as easily. Even on Potion/University boards I can't see having more than 3 Potions.
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Robz888

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 02:05:15 pm »
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Duke is the non-Colony alt-VP card that outshines Province most often, in my opinion.
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ednever

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 02:33:06 pm »
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Eistee

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 02:40:18 pm »
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I had Vineyards each worth 9 VP yesterday.

Was nice, my opponent might not have played perfectly though...
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sudgy

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 04:01:17 pm »
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I had Vineyards each worth 9 VP yesterday.

Was nice, my opponent might not have played perfectly though...

I was just about to say that.  And it was yesterday too...  He was trying to set up a scrying pool engine, but there was no trashing and I had loaded him with curses.

EDIT: I just got 13 points for each just now.  Scrying pool engine (with lots of pawns for lots of +buy) against a slow player, and two possessions every turn.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 02:29:06 am by sudgy »
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Lekkit

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 05:14:17 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure Gardens beat all other alt VP cards in terms of pure VP's. However, I agree that Vineyards is probably one of the easiest to compete with Provinces. In the games where Vineyards aren't really viable, they are pretty bad compared to Provinces and Duchies.

Worth to note is that Silk Roads and Gardens tend to favor rushes, so not all Provinces will be gone. Vineyards aren't really rush material, so they need to be worth a lot if you should want to get them over Provinces.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 12:39:00 am »
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Rats and Vineyard does seem pretty powerful. I will give you that. It also amazes me at how underestimated Vineyards is by many players. It is such a strong alt VP card.
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Kuildeous

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 10:00:10 am »
0

Rats and Vineyard does seem pretty powerful. I will give you that. It also amazes me at how underestimated Vineyards is by many players. It is such a strong alt VP card.

I think part of it is the dilemma it causes in a kingdom without +Buy.

If you get $6P and only one buy, do you buy a vineyard or a Gold? Although, Gold would be less important than a Province strategy, so change that to an action card.

But if you have +Buy, then that shifts the power level of Vineyard quite a bit.
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jomini

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 12:34:39 pm »
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The big power of vineyards comes from the fact that unlike most any other variable VP, the thing that maintains deck quality is what gives you points. Buy a village, great fewer terminal collisions and no real added space in deck. Buy a smithy, great more cycling and larger hands. Buy a workshop, great I can gain more cards for the vineyards. Vineyards are the pretty much the only bloat deck that may also be able to draw through and play every card. This gives them the option of including attacks, deck inspection, draw, and everything else.

Gardens are the easiest thing - you buy junk (coppers, estates, and enabling cards) that just slows down the deck and makes it harder to purchase other stuff (estates, enabling cards, duchies, etc.).


Silk roads encourages your deck to die as you just lay on more estates (great halls, duchies, etc.). If your deck isn't dying at game end you are likely playing sub-optimally.


Fairgrounds tend to include a good bit of junk you buy just to boost their value that does precious little to keep your deck's gaining power going or increasing (e.g. buying an herbalist, pearl diver, or scout helps the deck very little, but may need to be done - let alone buying a curse). You can setup beastly amounts of draw (particularly with something like Black Market/Library/Inn), but that tends to be less common as getting duplicate power cycling/attack/draw cards tends to conflict with buying Fairgrounds or uniques.


Feoda are the most similar to vineyards in this respect - gaining silver tends to increase your buying power, allowing you to dip into duchies and provinces late game. However, these setups also tend to reduce deck cycling and limit your buying options.
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Tuyolqx

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 12:11:23 pm »
+1

Very nice post  ;)
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Kuildeous

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 02:19:10 am »
0

With Rats, that could be 36 points each.

Also, there are 12 Great Halls, 12 Islands, and 12 Nobles, so you could actually have 116 action cards in your deck at 38 points.

((Insert Black Market caveat))

Oh, the things that run through my head when trying to get to sleep.

Also, add Necropolis to the mix, and someone could have 117 action cards, for a ridiculous 39-point Vineyard.
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jomini

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 08:59:03 pm »
0

With Rats, that could be 36 points each.

Also, there are 12 Great Halls, 12 Islands, and 12 Nobles, so you could actually have 116 action cards in your deck at 38 points.

((Insert Black Market caveat))

Oh, the things that run through my head when trying to get to sleep.

Also, add Necropolis to the mix, and someone could have 117 action cards, for a ridiculous 39-point Vineyard.

Let us not forget: the prizes (4 more), the Mercenaries (10 more, you can recover the Urchins with Rogue), the Madmen (10 more, you can recover Hermits with Graverobber), and Ruins (up to 50).
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Qualdrion

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Re: The Power of Vineyard
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 09:56:10 am »
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Yesterday I had a crazy game against a not very good opponent with a board with rats, scrying pool and vineyards. He got a potion early and got many vineyards while I was building my engine, making him win the vineyard split 5-3, but in the end I had a deck with like 10 rats, loads of stewards and mining villages and scrying pools and markets, while his deck was crap and only had 12 actions, while I had 46. Neither of us actually had any other VP besides the vineyards (due to me 3-piling), so I got a comfortable 45-20 win.
I really think rats/scrying pool/vineyards is a really really good option if all of them are on the board, and having markets for buys and stewards+mining villages for money didn't hurt either.
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