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[Galzria]

Vig is the exact same thing as cop except cop doesn't kill town, cop can never be more helpful than vig.

False, Vig shooting town is negative utility. Cop getting no result is null.

Right, vig can be more detrimental than cop but cop can never be more helpful than vig

cop getting a town result means nothing, the witch could be investigate proof and you have to lynch the person anyway. So I would rather shoot town than get a town result on cop actually.

Yeah.

I had honestly not read the full setup at the start of the game, but I took Vig for one big reason:

If I cop scum, I have to spend pages debating who's telling the truth. If I win or if I lose, scum gets a NK as well. Best case is 1 scum, 1 town dead.

If I vig scum, scum dies. Best case? 1 scum dead.

Could I hit town with my shot? Sure. But I'm confident enough to take that risk. And even if I'm wrong (worst case), it's one town dead and I've got IC status going forward. Worst case in the Cop argument is that I get lynched, and then scum gets another NK - so 2 town dead.

[Galzria]

Vig just seemed like no contest to me, even without knowing the setup. Having read the setup, I think that's even more true.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay since the witches power is unconfirmed, here's every situation.

Target is town
Vig = dead town, now you get a more informed lynch
Cop = town result is untrustworthy so you either
                  A) lynch anyway = town dead, now there's a NK
                  B) Don't lynch = nothing has happened, still unconfirmed town game goes on.

Target is Scum Bullet proof
Vig = you know its scum lynch them
Cop = you know its scum lynch them

Target is Scum Cop proof
Vig = dead scum
Cop = same as copping town player

Vig is better in all situations

[Insomniac]

You're overlooking one scenario (both of you).

If scum pick bulletproof, and your a vig they counterclaim you. and you spend pages arguing about which 2 are lying (or which 1 is)

[Galzria]

You're overlooking one scenario (both of you).

If scum pick bulletproof, and your a vig they counterclaim you. and you spend pages arguing about which 2 are lying (or which 1 is)

No, that's the exact same as copping scum that's bullet proof. And every other situation is an upside for Vig. So what's the point in being a cop there instead? None.

[Galzria]

You could argue that there's some fun stuff to do with the neighborizer (although it's not for me), but the choice between cop and vig is no question.

[Insomniac]

Personally for me in this setup I would have picked neighbourizer fully expecting the other fool to pick cop or vig.

I thought the choice between cop/vig would at least be interesting.

[Galzria]

Personally for me in this setup I would have picked neighbourizer fully expecting the other fool to pick cop or vig.

I thought the choice between cop/vig would at least be interesting.

If the Vig shot put the game into night then it would be a much harder decision because all of a sudden the worst case is two town dead - same as copping scum and losing the argument about who's lying.

Also, best case then is also 1 scum 1 town dead - same as copping scum and winning the debate.

I would STILL choose Vig though, since I know that I can trust whatever result I get (even if I don't kill said scum, it becomes exactly like copping scum). If I get a "town" result with cop I'll never know if I can trust it or not. It's like having no PR at all at that point.

[Galzria]

Personally for me in this setup I would have picked neighbourizer fully expecting the other fool to pick cop or vig.

I thought the choice between cop/vig would at least be interesting.

If the Vig shot put the game into night then it would be a much harder decision because all of a sudden the worst case is two town dead - same as copping scum and losing the argument about who's lying.

Also, best case then is also 1 scum 1 town dead - same as copping scum and winning the debate.

I would STILL choose Vig though, since I know that I can trust whatever result I get (even if I don't kill said scum, it becomes exactly like copping scum). If I get a "town" result with cop I'll never know if I can trust it or not. It's like having no PR at all at that point.

It would also add some WIFOM for the two Fools since they wouldn't both want the power. Ideally one would take Vig and the other Cop/Neighborizer - but neither knows what the other would choose.

[ashersky]

What if the roles were assigned randomly?

[Insomniac]

What if bulletproof became. "If shot you pick a townie to kill and survive"

[ashersky]

What if bulletproof became. "If shot you pick a townie to kill and survive"

So BP + Vengekill?

[Insomniac]

What if bulletproof became. "If shot you pick a townie to kill and survive"

So BP + Vengekill?

Or even like since you die anyways just get vigged and kill the vig.

(Why am I bad at hitting quote right now)

[ashersky]

What if bulletproof became. "If shot you pick a townie to kill and survive"

So BP + Vengekill?

Or even like since you die anyways just get vigged and kill the vig.

(Why am I bad at hitting quote right now)

You could add a conditional vengekill where if you are vigged, you kill the Fool.

Or maybe there's a role that does that?  Like a Suicidal Vigilante?

[Insomniac]

Well there Is weak Vig but they should only be weak if scum picks "BP"

[Axxle]

Instead of the witches killing at night, they should be able to kill once during the day, to add some unverifiableness to the fool vigs.

[Axxle]

Might make claiming Day 2 more interesting.

[Jimmmmm]

Another thing I thought about in the mod qt is I THINK it's ideal if town gets 2 different powers.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because basically what always happening (provided a Fool doesn't get nightkilled nIght 1), is the Fools come out on Day 2. So you want them to have a maximum differential powers at their disposal, I think.

I disagree. Basically, if you want to vig, you want to vig twice, for parity's sake.

[Jimmmmm]

If I'd've been a fool this game, I probably would have taken Neighbouriser as a clear way of backing up a claim. But I think I thought counter-claiming was a lot more likely than it actually is. I think the way to go is Vig, but I also think the way to go for Witches is Bulletproof, because even if it means you're caught, it causes a loss of pace to Town and less Town-directed kills.

[Eevee]

Gg town, well played!

[Galzria]

Sorry Eevee, I knew you were scum the moment I said this:

Yeah, across 24 (Including Arcana II) games, Eevee has been scum just 3 times. In his first ever game, M-III, and then twice just recently in ZM-IX and Arcana II. And that's it for "normal" games.

He's rolled scum in RMM as well, but that doesn't count.

Moral of the story - treat Eevee like an IC, and just accept the losses when he rolls scum. Losing only 12.5% of your games to a misplaced faith is really not bad, considering most people average out around a 50% win rate. And the rest the time you know you've got a town buddy to rely on!

Even though that was days before the launch of the game.