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Author Topic: Through the Ages online  (Read 198034 times)

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AHoppy

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #700 on: March 02, 2014, 05:26:27 pm »
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:(  Big bully :P

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #701 on: March 02, 2014, 06:18:44 pm »
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Kirian would have been a way nicer target as well. All that culture, even fewer resources to build up with. I think the best he could have reached is 29 strength.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #702 on: March 02, 2014, 06:45:42 pm »
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Don't forget less science... Ugh... You're just securing my loss :P  Next game tables... next game...

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #703 on: March 02, 2014, 07:29:09 pm »
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Yeah... I was kinda surprised I wasn't allowed to go back and change the target of my war, but I guess it possibly makes sense, revealing information that I have the card etc.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #704 on: March 02, 2014, 07:32:45 pm »
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Kirian would have been a way nicer target as well. All that culture, even fewer resources to build up with. I think the best he could have reached is 29 strength.

Yeah.  And then Jack Rudd a raid on me, and the best I could have mustered for the war ends up even lower.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #705 on: March 04, 2014, 12:00:14 pm »
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So I've been playing a good amount of TTA recently, particularly 2-player games. In total I've played maybe 30-40 games of TTA, most of them 2-player, quite a few of them 3-player. I've played like 2 4-player games; never again. TTA is already long enough with 2 or 3 players, 4P is just too long and I stop having fun after a certain amount of time.

I play a lot of 2P with an IRL friend of mine. Recently he's been beating me convincingly every game, which mean's he's better than me. It's time for me to take a look at the way I play the game and see if I can improve on it, but it's also time for me to take a look at whether or not I want to continue playing TTA or just move on to other games.

Don't get me wrong, TTA is really addicting and there many things I like: the "engine building" feel of the game, strategic depth, high-skill/moderate-luck. But there are some hurdles I've had to overcome, and I should assess the good vs. the bad.

Things I don't like about TTA:

- It's a long game. I prefer shorter ones. All things being equal, I'll play other games over TTA. There's a lot of "take your turn, then wait for a while for other people to take their turns" so there's a lot of downtime.

- It's possible to screw up relatively early and then effectively be out of the game. Yeah this is fine for shorter games, but TTA is not short. You can resign within the game rules but that's still not very good. That's tough for me to get past, because it makes learning from your mistakes a longer, more exhausting, less clear-cut process. I have like 6 video games I got for Christmas that I haven't started yet, so if there's no way for me to see what I did wrong and learn from it without being miserable for two hours, I'd rather just play my new Zelda game that I haven't started yet (how do I even live with myself? It's a Zelda game!)

Then there are some things I'm questioning, related to what I like about board games. I used to be REALLY into Power Grid, enough that I put up a blog devoted to it and there's a whole subforum here. Now, I just don't like the game anymore (I feel like theory and Dominion, it's funny, really). Why? Well I think it's a great game and I would recommend it to anyone, but it takes at least an hour to play and I think my group has exhausted the strategic depth of it. Once everyone is playing on the same level, the game becomes very chaotic and not my cup of tea anymore. I've been trying for a few months to convince myself that I'm wrong here but haven't come up with anything.

I really like focus on synergies, I really like games where at the beginning you are thinking about anything except scoring points because that's the right play. Is there a focus on synergy in TTA, or is it best to diversify as much as possible? I mean, some people say Agricola is about getting a little bit of everything but that game focuses on synergy to get your engine going, THEN you diversify for points later -- is TTA more like that?

I don't think I'm close to understanding the strategic depth of TTA... or am I? How deep could it possibly be? Is it possible to ignore any of (food/rock/science/happiness/military) up through Age 2 and have any chance at winning? Is this just a 2P thing? I mean, you can seed events to help you know what to prioritize, but still, if you end up missing one of these things I find it extremely hard to recover.

I'm not sure what I want to hear to make me feel better about the game. Maybe I'm just really off in terms of what actually helps me win and that's the source of my frustration. My IRL group just started playing Nations and that seems like a lot of the good things about TTA with a lot of the bad things taken out. What is it that people like about TTA?
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AHoppy

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #706 on: March 04, 2014, 12:22:30 pm »
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Well for me, I really like the TTA system.  I think it's so clever how everything works and that's a big part of why I love it so much.  As far as strategy, I still don't really get a lot of the strategy in the game, but I rarely play 2P games.  Granted, I rarely play IRL (Having only played I believe 4 full games IRL) but playing online gives you a lot more opportunity to screw up and not feel like you're wasting hours of your life.  I do find I enjoy Agricola much more.  I feel like Agricola changes more game to game than TTA and I understand it better :P

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #707 on: March 04, 2014, 12:35:31 pm »
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Well, there's a lot there to respond to, I'll just give some immediate thoughts that come to mind.

TtA is a very different game 2 player compared to 3-4 player. 3 player seems to be far and away the most popular for IRL play, 3-4 player are both common in online play. The main thing with 2 player is that it's a zero sum game, and that makes military hugely important. Pretty much if you're ahead of the opponent, attacking them will be a good thing. In 3 player, attacking can often be a bad thing for both players involved, if you don't have a significant lead. In 2 player you might lose some MAs failing an aggression, but you'll also waste your opponents bonus cards and/or force them to sacrifice, which often means you still come out ahead. On top of that the number of events which penalise the player whose weaker, especially in age I, encourages something of an arms race.

There are lots of ways you can build up in TtA, but in Age I, I think the most important things to improve are: Science first, then rocks and military, then food, and finally Happiness if you need to. You can easily get through the entire age I without taking a happiness tech, and often all you need is one Religion (or the Hanging Gardens) for the age. Science is really important in age I - you really want to get as many of those age I techs into play to start building your economy and military quickly, and the big chokepoint for that is science. It's for that reason that most experienced people will build a second Philosophy on turn 2 or 3, and also be willing to take Alchemy for 2 CAs.

After science, you need strength. This is more important in 2 player and slightly less in 3-4, but if you fall too far behind you're in big trouble. It's not too unusual to see good players sitting at around 10 strength by the end of age I. Resource production is also important - you can't put too many people on Bronze (4 is about the limit, but ideally you'd probably stop at 3) due to blue tokens and population being expensive. That makes Iron valuable. Iron is also one of the most expensive techs in age I at 5 science, and for good reason. It's a great tech to have, but you CAN skip it so long as you have a plan for resource production (which could be e.g. pacts, yellow cards, or just hope to grab Coal early...).

There are still three more 'resources' you can get in age I - civil actions, military actions and culture. Civil Actions are great - the Pyramids are arguably the best age I wonder, because having a 5th CA makes things a lot easier to manage late in age I. A 3rd military action is just as good though, it means you draw one more military card, significantly increasing your chance of getting a good tactics/seeing useful events/getting aggressions you want/drawing bonus cards - all valuable things. Warfare is a really nice tech for that reason. Finally, culture. I tend to barely even look at my culture during age I and not much during age II either. When you can easily be scoring 10-20 culture per turn in age III, with an extra 20-30 possibly from a wonder and big amounts from endgame scoring, a trickle of an extra 1 per turn in age I doesn't usually amount to much compared to the possible economic improvement you could have invested in. There are exceptions - the 'Michaelangtron' of Hanging Gardens/Theology/Organised Religion plus St. Peters Bascilica plus Michaelagelo generates absurd amounts of culture, as long as you can invest in your military enough to not get attacked too much, and can transition out comfortably into age III.

And well that's just an overview of age I (and a little age II) I suppose. It's a great game, although it's a little rough around the edges, and the way military is handled isn't the best, but there's a lot of tactical and strategic play possible.
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AdamH

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #708 on: March 04, 2014, 12:43:11 pm »
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Fascinating. Would you say, though, that at the end of Age 2 you are OK if you haven't upgraded all of (food/rock/science/happiness/military) under any circumstance? In any player game? I'd sort of like to hear that it's possible, and maybe not even an edge case.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #709 on: March 04, 2014, 02:28:07 pm »
+1

It's possible to do okay without upgrading SOME things, but it's not really common. TtA is a game that rewards you for being at least moderately diverse. You can easily focus on one factor, but you need some of everything to do really well. That includes CAs and MAs (which I think you should consider just as much of a resource as everything else). It's not quite the level of some Knizia games where you're only as strong as your weakest category, but it's not too far off a lot of the time.

By the end of age II you will occasionally be missing out on something important, and ultimately it depends on how you compensate. For example, if you don't get Iron and miss out on Coal, then you'll often still be okay if you have good food production (for extra workers) and a wealthy territory or similar (for blue tokens). Alternatively, if you have lots of CAs, then you can compensate by taking extra action cards to you. But not everything is so easy to work around. If you have almost no military going into age III, you are going to get destroyed, unless your opponents suck. If you have little in the way of science production, chances are you're in a very bad spot. You need some science to research the science producing techs, and if you've been chugging along on just 2-3 Philosophies, then you probably don't have great tech elsewhere.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #710 on: March 04, 2014, 05:06:34 pm »
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I think not upgrading resources and/or food except for a third mine can be viable if you have a high surplus of actions so you can compensate with yellow cards.
Not having military can work if noone else does.
Not upgrading happiness and food can be especially viable if you have loads of yellow tokens due to territories or a landslide War over Territory
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 05:08:22 pm by Watno »
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AdamH

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #711 on: March 05, 2014, 02:34:33 pm »
+1

Hmm, so let me try and put this in some different terms and maybe things might be clearer for me. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on something.

Define "have a solution for": Let me use examples here, over the course of the game, you're not going to be able to cut it with just two guys on Agriculture; you consume more food and your dudes cost more. One solution is to generate more food by upgrading your food techs and/or putting more guys on them. Another solution is to build Ocean Liner Service. Another solution is to get extra yellow dots. Maybe another solution is to get lots of yellow cards but I don't think that's really all that viable. "Have a solution for" food means you have at least one of these things (or any other one I forgot)

Maybe it will be helpful to cover all of the possibilities for "having a solution for" all of the things you "need" over the course of the game. When I started thinking about things this way I came across the revelation that taking a bunch of yellow cards AND generating a bunch of rock is redundant and not really that good of an idea: something that seems obvious but had never occurred to me before. Maybe more such discoveries will become apparent.

We did food already.

Rock: You can upgrade your rock techs and/or put more guys on rock production. You can get more civil actions and take more yellow cards. You can research certain blue techs that decrease your need for rock; maybe that means an abundance of science? Is there really anything else here? Will military strength sufficiently compensate for this?

Science: You can upgrade your science techs and build up to your Urban Building Limit on all of the stuff that gives you light bulbs. You can take leaders that provide extra science per turn. A temporary fix is to revolt to a new government when it comes time and save the science cost that way. Really, it seems like any opportunity to get more light bulbs is something that's worth investing in, right?

Happiness: You can upgrade your temples/arenas and get more happies that way (more than one happy per dude), you can just make a lot of dudes and have half of them be discontent (probably not such a great idea long-term), you can get more yellow dots to decrease your need for happiness, you can build a wonder or get a territory that provides enough happies until in the endgame you're building Theaters with all your guys anyways (living with one happy per dude).

Military: Uhh, get lots of defense cards and hope war isn't declared on you? I've heard the school of thought that you don't have to actually build up your military to defend yourself, you just have to be able to build up your military next turn if you have to and that's usually sufficient, but I haven't had much success with this. I mean researching military techs can only get you so far, it seems the only "have a solution for" available here is to research better military techs and put lots of guys on them. Is there anything else here?

Civil Actions: It's clear to me that four civil actions isn't enough for the game, you need to get more. I don't know that there's a substitute for this other than just to get more white dots however you can. How many CAs do you need to "have a solution" for Civil Actions? This assumes you aren't using an abundance of CAs to cover up for another problem you might have.

Military Actions: Yeah you need 3 or 4 of these eventually.

Points: I realize that these are the point of the game (see what I did there?) but I would hope these are just a metric to show you how well you did at all this other stuff. Otherwise, why are they there? So I don't necessarily think that this discussion applies here.

So the theory here is that one must "have a solution for" all of these things if they want to have a chance to win the game. Some of them have limited options for how you do it, but other ones can be made up for by excelling in other areas and are more flexible. Does that sound reasonable?

Here's another idea: one solution for almost all of these things is "make more dudes and put them on it and/or upgrade your techs." Would you say it's true that if this was your solution to all of these things, that you won't be able to keep up? Would you say that you have to go out and find something else to help you with your life, whether that's military strength or a good wonder you really need, or some extra yellow dots?

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #712 on: March 05, 2014, 03:48:24 pm »
+2

Military: Uhh, get lots of defense cards and hope war isn't declared on you? I've heard the school of thought that you don't have to actually build up your military to defend yourself, you just have to be able to build up your military next turn if you have to and that's usually sufficient, but I haven't had much success with this. I mean researching military techs can only get you so far, it seems the only "have a solution for" available here is to research better military techs and put lots of guys on them. Is there anything else here?

Draw Classic Army.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #713 on: March 05, 2014, 04:04:53 pm »
+1

Military: Uhh, get lots of defense cards and hope war isn't declared on you? I've heard the school of thought that you don't have to actually build up your military to defend yourself, you just have to be able to build up your military next turn if you have to and that's usually sufficient, but I haven't had much success with this. I mean researching military techs can only get you so far, it seems the only "have a solution for" available here is to research better military techs and put lots of guys on them. Is there anything else here?

Draw Classic Army.

A whole lot of this.  Mobile Artillery is also a good choice if you can grab Cannon early.  Both require only two techs and provide >2 per unit.

I really feel like this is one of TTA's major, major faults.  It's possible to never get a tactic that works for the techs you have, or to get a good tactic but get locked out of the tech cards.  Yet the tactics cards can more than double the strength of an army's units!  If you never get a good match, you end up playing most of the game with a half-strength military... and if an opponent grabs a good match and then gets Napoleon... well, yeah.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #714 on: March 05, 2014, 04:06:06 pm »
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Anyway!  #93 is up, 3P global.
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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #715 on: March 05, 2014, 08:03:05 pm »
+1

Hmm, so let me try and put this in some different terms and maybe things might be clearer for me. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on something.

Define "have a solution for": Let me use examples here, over the course of the game, you're not going to be able to cut it with just two guys on Agriculture; you consume more food and your dudes cost more. One solution is to generate more food by upgrading your food techs and/or putting more guys on them. Another solution is to build Ocean Liner Service. Another solution is to get extra yellow dots. Maybe another solution is to get lots of yellow cards but I don't think that's really all that viable. "Have a solution for" food means you have at least one of these things (or any other one I forgot)

I think that it's very rare that you'll get away with no extra food production. 3 food per turn plus something like Ocean Liner Service/extra yellow tokens might just take you through, but that's a pretty rare set of circumstances (OLS is an age II wonder... what are you doing until then?). I think that a good benchmark minimum to aim for is (effectively) 4 food production per turn. So e.g. 2 guys in Irrigation (Age I food tech) will do that, OLS will kinda do that, lots of extra yellow tokens might just do that, you get the idea. And I said minimum, because that's probably not quite enough most of the time. If I win a nice yellow token territory, 2 Irrigation guys is often enough, but if not, then I'd often want a third or perhaps to grab Selective Breeding/Mechanised Agriculture.

Quote
Rock: You can upgrade your rock techs and/or put more guys on rock production. You can get more civil actions and take more yellow cards. You can research certain blue techs that decrease your need for rock; maybe that means an abundance of science? Is there really anything else here? Will military strength sufficiently compensate for this?

I think that, far more than any other resource, rocks are the easiest thing to substitute. There are loads of action cards which give extra bonuses to resouce production - Mineral Deposts (produce X), Ideal Building Site (build a building for -X), Efficient Upgrade (upgrade for -X), Patriotism (+X for military and 1 MA), Engineering Genius (build wonder stage for X+1 less), Rich Land (build mine or farm for -X) and some specialised ones giving resources for military. X is the age you're in plus 1 in each of these. Oh and a lot of those have multiples in each age. That's... actually a surprising amount of the deck which is just cards giving extra resources. If you don't get a resource tech, then taking one of these per turn gives you effectively around 2-4 extra resources per turn, at the cost of some CAs per turn. There's also the other things you mention - construction techs to reduce costs, military to take opponent's resources (this one is mega unreliable of course though), also events give rocks not too infrequently etc.

Quote
Science: You can upgrade your science techs and build up to your Urban Building Limit on all of the stuff that gives you light bulbs. You can take leaders that provide extra science per turn. A temporary fix is to revolt to a new government when it comes time and save the science cost that way. Really, it seems like any opportunity to get more light bulbs is something that's worth investing in, right?

Science is pretty tough to get extra of, you pretty much need to get a science tech in age I or II. Fortunately there are a decent number of those in the decks, so especially in 2 player you should be able to get one, but there's always a chance you won't. There aren't many science providing actions, but they do tend to give a lot each.

Quote
Happiness: You can upgrade your temples/arenas and get more happies that way (more than one happy per dude), you can just make a lot of dudes and have half of them be discontent (probably not such a great idea long-term), you can get more yellow dots to decrease your need for happiness, you can build a wonder or get a territory that provides enough happies until in the endgame you're building Theaters with all your guys anyways (living with one happy per dude).

I dunno if I'd say endgame Theaters is something that happens THAT frequently, but otherwise, agreement here more or less. I would say it's uncommon to go the entire game without a happiness tech, although if you get a few extra happy faces you can manage it (I think I did that once). I think I normally grab a happiness tech in age II, sometimes in age I though. Which one is usually just whichever is there when I need it.

Quote
Military: Uhh, get lots of defense cards and hope war isn't declared on you? I've heard the school of thought that you don't have to actually build up your military to defend yourself, you just have to be able to build up your military next turn if you have to and that's usually sufficient, but I haven't had much success with this. I mean researching military techs can only get you so far, it seems the only "have a solution for" available here is to research better military techs and put lots of guys on them. Is there anything else here?

Military is something I just don't think you can reliably skip. Sometimes you can luck out and have low strength but no-one else can draw a war (or only other relatively weak players), or maybe nobody goes military (but in that case if you had gone military chances are things would have worked out better for you). But usually, I think you need some strength on the board.

Quote
Civil Actions: It's clear to me that four civil actions isn't enough for the game, you need to get more. I don't know that there's a substitute for this other than just to get more white dots however you can. How many CAs do you need to "have a solution" for Civil Actions? This assumes you aren't using an abundance of CAs to cover up for another problem you might have.

I think 6 CAs is enough that you can do what you need without serious issue, but I would generally prefer to have 7 or so. More is obviously better, but obviously, each extra CA you get will have a cost of some form, be it a played leader in lieu of a different leader, a wonder that cost resources, a tech which cost science to play etc. and those costs might have gone towards something else. I guess what that means is, if I get Constitutional Monarchy, I'd like one more CA, but if I get Republic, I won't care too much. And well often it's actually the other way around, I have an extra CA so Const Mon appeals more etc. If really necessary, I feel like you could probably get by with only 5 CAs.

Quote
Military Actions: Yeah you need 3 or 4 of these eventually.

ASAP I would say. Warfare is a tech I very often take for 1 CA and will consider at 2 CAs. Getting a good tactics card can make a big difference, as can better event and aggression control.

Quote
Points: I realize that these are the point of the game (see what I did there?) but I would hope these are just a metric to show you how well you did at all this other stuff. Otherwise, why are they there? So I don't necessarily think that this discussion applies here.

Yeah, kinda. Culture does sometimes matter earlier in the game (e.g. Terrorism event, National Pride event), but it's more kind of, you can sacrifice some tempo to score good points earlier on in the game, and that can sometimes be a good thing and sometimes a bad thing. E.g. Libraries compared to Labs, Theaters in general. Usually though, everything kind of comes down to 'how will my strengths score me points/how will my weaknesses prevent me scoring?'

Quote
So the theory here is that one must "have a solution for" all of these things if they want to have a chance to win the game. Some of them have limited options for how you do it, but other ones can be made up for by excelling in other areas and are more flexible. Does that sound reasonable?

Hmm... I'm not quite sure how to respond to this but let me put it this way: If you sit with only three resource income per turn, and never take action cards, what's going to happen? If I sit with just two guys on Philosophy and refuse to upgrade my science production or fight for science bonuses, what's going to happen? In both of these cases I think the answer is, those things will become a bottleneck for me getting things done, no matter what I try and do. So I guess that kind of means, you don't so much as need to try and find a solution to try and win, but you'll find yourself more or less forced into dealing with the issue until you can resolve it. And sometimes, the issue can cripple you. I've had a game IRL where I missed out on Iron in age I, which is fine, but then the two Coals were in the three last cards of age II. I found myself forced to take action cards repeatedly, simply because I couldn't afford to keep growing any other way, and it was repeatedly obvious what I needed was more resources.

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Here's another idea: one solution for almost all of these things is "make more dudes and put them on it and/or upgrade your techs." Would you say it's true that if this was your solution to all of these things, that you won't be able to keep up? Would you say that you have to go out and find something else to help you with your life, whether that's military strength or a good wonder you really need, or some extra yellow dots?

To some degree I think a large part of the game is that you more or less need to upgrade everything, at least a little. But you can't keep everything in the most up-to-date form possible, that's generally impossible. It's not unusual for example to end the game on Irrigation as your only source of food (so that's an age I tech, providing for you in age IV). For example here's a recently finished game from BGO: http://www.boardgaming-online.com/index.php?cnt=202&pl=7160648. You can see what I have there for each type of thing:

Food - Mechanised Agriculture (Age II). I didn't get an Age I food tech.
Resources - Coal (Age II) plus Iron (Age I), plus Transcontinental Railroad. I had really high resource production in this game (12 rocks through most of age III), which meant I also have a lot of expensive (resource wise) other things.
Science - Alchemy (Age I), and then Journalism (Age II), with Journalism not played until age III IIRC.
Happiness - Team Sports (Age II). Religion kept me going until then, and also Movies (age III) later on.
Military - This one I think you usually need probably a tech from most ages, to keep up. I have one from each age, giving a respectable 45 strength including other bonuses.
CAs - Constitutional Monarchy (Age II) was my government, with Code of Laws (Age I) providing an extra CA.
MAs - Again Constitutional Monarchy (Age II) providing 4 MAs. Military Theory (Age III) is a little misleading here since I played it last turn to power my Wonder up (it's an expansion wonder).

Well in a way this game is a little odd. I seem to have an unusual number of age II techs, but I think that's because I played a good number in age III. I also had a few other special techs like Cartography and Architecture. Hopefully what this demonstrates is that you can get by on a single upgrade to a lot of things - although two upgrades is often better.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Watno

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #716 on: March 05, 2014, 08:35:29 pm »
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Hmm, so let me try and put this in some different terms and maybe things might be clearer for me. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on something.

Define "have a solution for": Let me use examples here, over the course of the game, you're not going to be able to cut it with just two guys on Agriculture; you consume more food and your dudes cost more. One solution is to generate more food by upgrading your food techs and/or putting more guys on them. Another solution is to build Ocean Liner Service. Another solution is to get extra yellow dots. Maybe another solution is to get lots of yellow cards but I don't think that's really all that viable. "Have a solution for" food means you have at least one of these things (or any other one I forgot)

I think that it's very rare that you'll get away with no extra food production. 3 food per turn plus something like Ocean Liner Service/extra yellow tokens might just take you through, but that's a pretty rare set of circumstances (OLS is an age II wonder... what are you doing until then?). I think that a good benchmark minimum to aim for is (effectively) 4 food production per turn. So e.g. 2 guys in Irrigation (Age I food tech) will do that, OLS will kinda do that, lots of extra yellow tokens might just do that, you get the idea. And I said minimum, because that's probably not quite enough most of the time. If I win a nice yellow token territory, 2 Irrigation guys is often enough, but if not, then I'd often want a third or perhaps to grab Selective Breeding/Mechanised Agriculture.
I think the 2 starting people in Agriculture are usually enough at least until mid-AgeII. I very rarely take Irrigation.
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Kirian

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #717 on: March 05, 2014, 09:33:35 pm »
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Hmm, so let me try and put this in some different terms and maybe things might be clearer for me. Please correct me if I'm mistaken on something.

Define "have a solution for": Let me use examples here, over the course of the game, you're not going to be able to cut it with just two guys on Agriculture; you consume more food and your dudes cost more. One solution is to generate more food by upgrading your food techs and/or putting more guys on them. Another solution is to build Ocean Liner Service. Another solution is to get extra yellow dots. Maybe another solution is to get lots of yellow cards but I don't think that's really all that viable. "Have a solution for" food means you have at least one of these things (or any other one I forgot)

I think that it's very rare that you'll get away with no extra food production. 3 food per turn plus something like Ocean Liner Service/extra yellow tokens might just take you through, but that's a pretty rare set of circumstances (OLS is an age II wonder... what are you doing until then?). I think that a good benchmark minimum to aim for is (effectively) 4 food production per turn. So e.g. 2 guys in Irrigation (Age I food tech) will do that, OLS will kinda do that, lots of extra yellow tokens might just do that, you get the idea. And I said minimum, because that's probably not quite enough most of the time. If I win a nice yellow token territory, 2 Irrigation guys is often enough, but if not, then I'd often want a third or perhaps to grab Selective Breeding/Mechanised Agriculture.
I think the 2 starting people in Agriculture are usually enough at least until mid-AgeII. I very rarely take Irrigation.

That seems... off somehow.  You start with 7 Population.  The maximum you can get to without boosting food production somehow is 13--and that would take 10 rounds, by which time you will have lost two of those yellow tokens to getting into Age II.  So realistically, without adding other food production, you have a total max population of 12 (depending on when the Age II barrier hits).  Five of those are production buildings, and by mid-Age II at least four had better be military and two science, leaving you with... one guy to do something else, if you're lucky.

Now, if you can land a Fertile or Inhabited Territory very early, that could easily last until even Age III (I just came in second in a game where my first upgrade in food was from Agriculture to Mechanized... but I had an early Fertile).
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Watno

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #718 on: March 06, 2014, 08:38:39 am »
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So what else do you need to have in the middle of Agr II?
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Tables

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #719 on: March 06, 2014, 12:29:58 pm »
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I think the 2 starting people in Agriculture are usually enough at least until mid-AgeII. I very rarely take Irrigation.

I can't say I'm convinced, although I suppose it's something that might be worth trying intentionally (although I have been forced into doing it, for sure, sometimes). Irrigation is a cheap tech and there are three of them, and 2 food production means you get new workers pretty slowly in age I without something like Moses (you get up to 9 over the first two-three turns, get the 10th at around turn 4-5, then an 11th just as age I is ending maybe?). And like Kirian said, 11-12 guys just isn't really enough at that point. 2 guys on Agriculture, 3 on Resources, ~3-5 in military, ~2-3 in science, 1 in happiness, that's... 11-14 people you probably want. And at that point, you need 2 happy faces and are eating the 2 food you produce each turn, so you probably aren't getting new workers until you increase food production. What if you can't get Selective Breeding? There are only two in a four player game after all.

Of course, there are other things that can help food production. Extra yellow tokens help it out, as they reduce consumption. Events can provide food and population - although they can also take both away, but the ones that provide are more likely to come out early, so I think that's a net positive. There's a few action cards which give extra food, which might get you an extra worker. And then there's things like the Hanging Gardens which reduces your need for a guy on happiness, Moses to help you get extra workers more quickly... is there much else? It seems like it'd be a much more difficult and risky way to build your civilisation, since if you don't get Selective Breeding or Irrigation, you're likely to be very limited population wise.

So, Watno, what do you usually do about that?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #720 on: March 06, 2014, 12:53:06 pm »
+1

I haven't really played lately (only half a game a week ago)
so I checked back and it appears I usually end up taking Irrigation much more often than I thought. I don't prioritize taking it though, but with there being one for nearly every player, I usually just end up picking one up when it's cheap.

Still I don't think I usually upgrade Food production until the middle of Age II. I try to have ~2-4 military guys, 2 farms, 3 mines and 2 labs + 1 clown. Age A events usually gets you enough food for that. Then my first priority in Age II is building my happiness tech, and only then I need to start thinking food. I don't really need another guy before I can build a third lab, because where would that one go?
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Tables

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #721 on: March 06, 2014, 02:57:15 pm »
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I think that makes sense. Something I think it's worth noting though is that, you don't just increase food production and then suddenly have enough workers. Plus, improving food production early means you don't have to worry about it in age II, and you have extra food and workers for that time to invest however necessary. The ebbs and flows caused by events, aggressions and whatever techs you do/don't get I feel mean that extra flexibility can be valuable.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #722 on: March 08, 2014, 08:25:25 am »
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#94
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AHoppy

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #723 on: March 08, 2014, 12:04:15 pm »
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Join ALL the games!

ipofanes

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Re: Through the Ages online
« Reply #724 on: March 10, 2014, 05:17:14 am »
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So I've been playing a good amount of TTA recently, particularly 2-player games. In total I've played maybe 30-40 games of TTA, most of them 2-player, quite a few of them 3-player. I've played like 2 4-player games; never again. TTA is already long enough with 2 or 3 players, 4P is just too long and I stop having fun after a certain amount of time.

Kids these days. Never have savoured the weariness after a Francis Tresham's Civilisation night.

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Things I don't like about TTA:

- It's a long game. I prefer shorter ones. All things being equal, I'll play other games over TTA. There's a lot of "take your turn, then wait for a while for other people to take their turns" so there's a lot of downtime.

Hrm. In a two-person game I can barely go through the motions of end-turn production and plan my next move before I am up again. Downtime is a bit of an issue in a 4-player game. "All things" includes total playing time?

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- It's possible to screw up relatively early and then effectively be out of the game. Yeah this is fine for shorter games, but TTA is not short. You can resign within the game rules but that's still not very good. That's tough for me to get past, because it makes learning from your mistakes a longer, more exhausting, less clear-cut process.

Resigning should mend the early screwage problem quite nicely in th 2p matches you prefer. I mean there is no point continuing a Go match after forfeiting a large corner group. Start another one and learn from your mistakes.

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Then there are some things I'm questioning, related to what I like about board games. I used to be REALLY into Power Grid, enough that I put up a blog devoted to it and there's a whole subforum here. Now, I just don't like the game anymore (I feel like theory and Dominion, it's funny, really). Why? Well I think it's a great game and I would recommend it to anyone, but it takes at least an hour to play and I think my group has exhausted the strategic depth of it. Once everyone is playing on the same level, the game becomes very chaotic and not my cup of tea anymore. I've been trying for a few months to convince myself that I'm wrong here but haven't come up with anything.

I think there is less chaos in the card row at TTA then at Power Grid, and that the chaos can be leveraged better by skilled players than "just the right plant" that comes up after you have passed in Power Grid. It will take you some time to catch up to your friend and much more time to ultimately exhaust the tactical depth of the game.

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I really like focus on synergies, I really like games where at the beginning you are thinking about anything except scoring points because that's the right play. Is there a focus on synergy in TTA, or is it best to diversify as much as possible? I mean, some people say Agricola is about getting a little bit of everything but that game focuses on synergy to get your engine going, THEN you diversify for points later -- is TTA more like that?

I don't think I'm close to understanding the strategic depth of TTA... or am I? How deep could it possibly be? Is it possible to ignore any of (food/rock/science/happiness/military) up through Age 2 and have any chance at winning? Is this just a 2P thing? I mean, you can seed events to help you know what to prioritize, but still, if you end up missing one of these things I find it extremely hard to recover.

This has been addressed by Tables. My rough goal is to have three of four (Philosophy, Knights (Swordsmen being consolation prize), Irrigation, Iron) upgrades until the end of Age I. If I get all four upgraded I am prone to obsolescence by end of Age II.


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I'm not sure what I want to hear to make me feel better about the game. Maybe I'm just really off in terms of what actually helps me win and that's the source of my frustration. My IRL group just started playing Nations and that seems like a lot of the good things about TTA with a lot of the bad things taken out. What is it that people like about TTA?

I feel that a civ game that takes you all the way from Antiquity to the Digital Age is not too long at 70-100 minutes per person. (Although a devoted follower of Innovation, I would not rate it as a Civ game.) It is hard to base progress on so many pillars (happiness, resources, food, science, strength, civil/military actions, yellow/blue pips) and have them all upgradeable. Some time can be saved by leaving the accountancy to the computer. No experience with Nations so I cannot say where the game cuts corners without taking away from the enjoyment of developing your economy.
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