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Author Topic: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?  (Read 80899 times)

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DStu

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #225 on: March 06, 2013, 03:07:14 pm »
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Donald X.

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #226 on: March 06, 2013, 03:10:04 pm »
+4

It's Jay.
/shame
It's not a shame, it's a fine name. It's just not "Ray."
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pinkymadigan

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #227 on: March 06, 2013, 05:09:01 pm »
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werothegreat

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2013, 05:48:00 pm »
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Re: "how many new players will there be":

A lot more people play computer games than board games.  Goko will reach a far larger audience than the physical game ever could.
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Ozle

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #229 on: March 06, 2013, 05:54:25 pm »
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Is that chat any better?

I find it so hard to get people to actually talk in the lobby's on ISO!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #230 on: March 06, 2013, 05:57:58 pm »
+1

Well, yeah. Talking in a lobby of 100 people gets silly if there are even 3 conversations going on. Better to talk in the game.

I do hate how I can't chat on Goko when using the iPad, though. It won't bring the keyboard up. I feel bad when my opponent tries to talk to me and I can't respond.
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Ozle

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #231 on: March 06, 2013, 05:58:57 pm »
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Hardly anybody has a conversation when I am there though, no matter how much opening I give them!
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DDAP

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #232 on: March 06, 2013, 07:01:30 pm »
+6

I'm not playing on Goko coz it demands my full attention.
I play -heavily- on Iso because I can multitask.  The interface is as stripped down as I could possibly hope for.  The "Your Turn" flashing browser tab is immensely helpful.  I love to play fast and get into games fast without any appreciable loading time.  No loading bar on Iso!  The simplicity of Iso is what makes it perfect.
Also:
I hate that I cannot be "Discard Duchesses - Acquire Platinums" on Goko due to the name length constraint.  I am also going to miss the entertaining (unmoderated) usernames on Iso.
I HAAAATE the overly friendly, inoffensive, generic, bland 'characters' used as avatars on Goko - they are soooooo lame.  At the very least much cooler art could've been made that compliments the style of the art in the physical game.
Overall it is just so clunky and bloated for what it needs to be.  Iso is the opposite - and it is perfect.  If I learn that I can play on Goko using an interface that is as close as possible to Iso's fast click, no-load implementation, I'll give it another try.  Hell, I'll prolly play on Goko from time to time - but they wont be getting any money from me.  Much rather spend it on physical card sets - or on a sub to continue playing on Iso, for that matter.

I am an actual video game designer - for 15 years now, and I've been through my own set of catastrophes, seeing developers utter fail to understand their market.  I think RGG dropped the ball here, big time.  Listen to your fans.  PLEASE.

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1wheel

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #233 on: March 07, 2013, 01:03:19 am »
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The problem with the logs had to be "solved" by an browserplugin hacking into their Javascript, the point counter will take the same route, which is not good neither if you want to have an official one nor if you don't want to have a point counter.

I don't think there's a way to prevent point counter plugins, and I certainly don't think there should be a point counter built into the game itself. We've been through all of this before, and if you're playing Dominion (rather than a variant), using a point counter other than your brain is cheating.
I'm not strictly against that variant though. It has some baggage that comes with it - matchmaking that takes into account whether or not people are okay with the point counter or demand it or demand not to have it. I don't know if they will add one but it's not out of the question. And as has been pointed out, if they don't someone else will.

drheld actually created a working goko point tracker several months ago: https://github.com/drheld/goko_dominion_extension

I used some of his code in the chrome log extension but did not include the point tracker since there isn't a way for it to communicate with the (non-existent) matchmaking process. It wouldn't be fair to players without the extension and might cause goko to make reading the logs during the game more difficult.

I would be very surprised if goko ever integrated a point tracker or log viewer; there isn't room for one on smaller devices and the whole point of their platform is its ability to run anywhere.

Donald X.

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #234 on: March 07, 2013, 01:10:07 am »
+1

I would be very surprised if goko ever integrated a point tracker or log viewer; there isn't room for one on smaller devices and the whole point of their platform is its ability to run anywhere.
I'm not sure I follow you. They implemented a log viewer; you click a button and see a log. Obv., worst case, you can stick the current score in the log. And I certainly hope they will add a buttonless log & chat for people on computers.
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DStu

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #235 on: March 07, 2013, 02:02:59 am »
+2

Also: This

I mean, this is so symptomatic of what I think about Goko.  I mean, not everybody programming or giving feedback on a game have to be an ace in math or probability.  But if you use an approximation to calculate something, you should
a) realize you are using an approximation
b) if this approximation gives some strange result, you should
 1) realize it's a strange result (I mean come on, 3 out of 1000, why are they even in the box?)
 2) apply some check to your result.  You could do a sim, you could look at councilroom data, you could talk to someone else in your company.
 3) At least after you got told that you made a mistake an why, you should somehow realize it
c) If you yourself don't do this, someone working with you should have done this.


This result really doesn't stand one second of critical thinking about it, neither is it plausible, nor is the approximation any bit sane, but nevertheless this is now live for I don't know how many days, and the reasoning is on the net 2 times for 10 days and both times called wrong.  How can I expect anything to work in an environment that lets something like this happen, especially given the evidence that a lot of things didn't work at first?
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Axxle

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #236 on: March 07, 2013, 02:54:26 am »
0

What is that I dont even... (regarding that probability logic)

To be fair there isn't a lot of probability knowledge that goes into programming things like this beyond realizing theres a problem that needs troubleshooting.
itd be helpfull in certain types of ai programing too I guess.
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Binky the Clow

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #237 on: March 07, 2013, 10:14:49 pm »
+2

I am an isotropic refugee who tried Goku for the first time yesterday.  I tried to approach it with an open mind because it's human nature to want to avoid change, and isotropic has set a very high standard.

The good news is that the interface is polished and reflects the home game well.  The graphics are beautiful and the layout pretty straightforward.  I didn't experience any crashes and although there were times I suspected bugs (eg, I could swear it let me trash > 4 cards with Chapel), it may very well have been user error.  Coding a clean UI is not easy no matter how many webkits there are available these days and I think the team here did a good job. 

The bad news is that there are some very fundamental things missing here and, in my opinion, this is not ready for primetime until they are addressed.  The most glaring problem to me is the lack of a middle ground in the UI, where one can see what's going on in the game without having to be bombarded with animations (which I'm quite certain any users who play this for any reasonable length of time are going to want to disable).  The animations annoyed me after about two games so I turned my settings to "very fast" to disable them.  But in this mode, the game is basically unplayable because it requires consulting the log every turn to figure out what you or your opponent did. Things like crossroad reveals and jester attacks are very cumbersome with the animations disabled (and, in fact, even in "fast" mode they don't provide enough time for old fogies like myself).  I was playing one game and ended up buying three curses because I thought that they were the copper targets for my swindler.  I have no idea how this managed to pass testing.    Fortunately, the solution is very simple.  There is plenty of space underneath the cards, and there needs to be an option (which I'd default to "on") to display text there, similar to what is written to the log.  So when something is swindled, it can say "You swindled a copper..." and so forth.

The other major problem is the matching setup.  First off, separating players into rooms is completely unintuitive and awkward.  There is no real technical reason why the lobby can't support a huge amount of players (even if the games get hosted on different machines on the backend).  Furthermore, there is no logical filtering of the games in play.  I don't care about games that are in progress (which is 99% of the games at any one moment).  I just want to see what's available.  Ideally I could say "show me 'pro' games".  More ideally, "show me 'pro' games with dark ages sets".  Even more ideally "just automatch me into a 'pro' game with a dark age set".  Is there any reason why everything is done manually here?  All I'm doing is bouncing from room to room in search of that elusive 'pro' game that might appear, and most of the time I'm switching too late, just as if I were changing lanes in traffic only to see my original lane speed up. 

Overall, I think this thing is close, but at the same time these very fundamental concepts need to be addressed before I'll be buying in.  And I suspect others feel the same.  And I'm hardly a "hard core" player-- this is just common sense stuff.   While staying true to the board game is great, one of the advantages of a computer version is to improve on those parts that are more readily accessible (the lack of shuffling being the obvious one, but other things like text feedback of events rather than having to squint at small cards).  Isotropic was an example of a system that did this in a very minimalist fashion.  There's no reason Goku can't do the same while still keeping their impressive glitz factor.
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sea haggler

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #238 on: March 07, 2013, 11:30:14 pm »
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I've played goko.  Here are my thoughts.

Why is this taking forever to load.  Why do I have to pick an avatar?  Why are these animations taking so long.  Why is diving into a game taking forty minutes?  What is the deal with the overblown music?

The problem probably everyone is having is not that the graphics are ugly, they're just unnecessary.  They just add an extra step between you and the creamy centre of dominion.  And with each additional step that comes in, the experience gets worse. 

It's the difference between just sitting down at the table to play dominion IRL, vs showing up at your friends' house, introducing yourself as though you'd never met anyone, having to use his card holders to hold the cards, having to wear a pair of gloves to handle the cards, etc etc etc.  Everything about goko gets in the way of the game it's supposed to be promoting. 
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enfynet

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #239 on: March 07, 2013, 11:43:38 pm »
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I think the biggest thing missing is the always-visible turn log. It is impossible to look away without missing something. Playing in real life you usually can just ask the person to either wait, or to describe their turn. On Goko it is extremely difficult to follow opponents' turns.
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Axxle

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #240 on: March 07, 2013, 11:49:41 pm »
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Tried playing today, so difficult to find a match.
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werothegreat

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #241 on: March 08, 2013, 12:15:58 am »
0

Tried playing today, so difficult to find a match.

Give me a time, and I'll play you.
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Axxle

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #242 on: March 08, 2013, 12:18:54 am »
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I don't play at specific times.  I just want to log in and play.
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Kirian

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #243 on: March 08, 2013, 01:51:16 am »
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I don't play at specific times.  I just want to log in and play.

If you have all the expansions, I guarantee you'll find a game within 5 minutes or less.
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #244 on: March 08, 2013, 05:54:16 am »
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I don't like the general argument some make that "if you can't stop X you should encourage it," but for sure people will have a point counter one way or another. It would be better to include it so that matchmaking can use it. Matchmaking could potentially cover it without including it but I don't see that happening.
It only takes a couple hours to make an android app that loads their webpage full screen in landscape mode... why haven't they made one? Why was it a higher priority to develop mediocre music and 500 ugly avatars? I thought they got the job precisely because they were the "any platform" bid.

Most of my major concerns that actually stopped me playing on Goko are gone now but a few of the minor annoying ones remain.... the avatars is one of the most annoying. I would have thought the whole point of having avatars was to help differentiate people (and to let people put a bit of their own personality into how they are represented on line).... so doesn't it defeat the whole point of having avatars if you basically make them all look exactly the same...?

I mean look at the way BGG have implemented avatars to see it done right. Lots of people have put lots of though into their avatars on BGG. Goko could even have turned it into the alternative revenue stream they seem so desperate to have.... people could pay an extra dollar or two to have an animated avatar instead of a static one. Badges for people who win tournaments or other achievements.... the avatars as they exist at the moment are 1/ not in keeping with the predominant art style of dominion and 2/ such a wasted opportunity.

End of rant. Now I'm off to cross post this on Get Satisfaction.

Ratsia

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #245 on: March 08, 2013, 06:06:18 am »
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If you have all the expansions, I guarantee you'll find a game within 5 minutes or less.
Assuming that upper bound if not extremely loose, that's also a terribly long time. You could often play a full game in five minutes, so already 1-2 minutes of waiting will mean that a terribly big share of the total time is spent just waiting. Since I usually log in to play just 1-2 games, I also cannot take advantage of repeated games against the same opponent, but instead really have to suffer through the waiting time every time I play. I definitely would not want to spend some 10-30% of the precious online gaming time waiting for a game to start.

In Isotropic I literally always get an opponent in at most tens of seconds (I usually do not use restrictions for player level).
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cactus

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #246 on: March 08, 2013, 06:30:40 am »
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Start of new rant:

The flavour text in Adventure Mode. I know I know, minor, not important. I'm still playing plenty of games on Goko and enjoying them.... but the adventure mode scripts are so awful....

When I think the Donald's witty and surreal flavour text for the original game....  and compare it to the flavour text for Goko's Adventure Mode....

The flavour text for Goko's Adventure Mode is so uninspired it makes me want to go and drink myself to death in Paris.

Polk5440

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #247 on: March 08, 2013, 08:25:34 am »
+1

If you have all the expansions, I guarantee you'll find a game within 5 minutes or less.
Assuming that upper bound if not extremely loose, that's also a terribly long time. You could often play a full game in five minutes, so already 1-2 minutes of waiting will mean that a terribly big share of the total time is spent just waiting. Since I usually log in to play just 1-2 games, I also cannot take advantage of repeated games against the same opponent, but instead really have to suffer through the waiting time every time I play. I definitely would not want to spend some 10-30% of the precious online gaming time waiting for a game to start.

In Isotropic I literally always get an opponent in at most tens of seconds (I usually do not use restrictions for player level).

It is extremely loose. If you have all the expansions and put "all cards" in the name of your game, you will can have a 2 or 3 player game going quickly; usually <10 seconds.

I have seen no difference in average match times between Goko and Iso. I don't think I've waited any longer than 1 minute since I've owned the cards. Even waiting a minute or two beats waiting for your automatch partner on Iso to accept and then seeing "X has declined (by timing out)" or being automatched with the same person over and over again and keep getting declined, which happened more and more often the higher ranked I got. When Goko implements automatch, I really hope it's better than Iso's.
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DStu

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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #248 on: March 08, 2013, 08:29:38 am »
+1

Having it better than Iso is simple: DO NOT LEAK ANY INFORMATION WHATSOEVER BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS (shouting for the hope Goko is listening: If you have some mathematical proof that some other method is better: It's wrong!)
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Re: Why aren't *you* playing on Goko?
« Reply #249 on: March 08, 2013, 08:31:51 am »
+1

I think the biggest thing missing is the always-visible turn log. It is impossible to look away without missing something. Playing in real life you usually can just ask the person to either wait, or to describe their turn. On Goko it is extremely difficult to follow opponents' turns.

This is available here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6788.0
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