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Author Topic: Three with TheSadPanda  (Read 1715 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Three with TheSadPanda
« on: December 22, 2012, 12:25:27 am »
+3

I've played TheSadPanda a LOT in the past few days - there have been long stretches where I was the only one auto-match set against him, and he was either the only one or one of two for me, so some epic wars. There are three really interesting games that I seriously considered doing annotated games on, but which I ultimately think are going to be best fit as regular old game reports. So, I figure, same opponent, why not same thread?

Game 1 (Note, these were not consecutive, and this probably isn't even the right order on them; also, they're cherry-picked by me, so take that for what you will): http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/21/game-20121221-163403-d5463d18.html
So University-vineyards is super obvious here, but what else to do? We both open masquerade with our potions, which makes a lot of sense to accelerate and thin. But I have what I think is a very clever idea which I think largely wins me the game. And that's to focus crossroads. I realize I hardly need any money, so I just pass away my coppers in preference to estates, virtually every time (there was one or two that I wanted to make sure I had $2 left). This allows my crossroads to cycle my through at a good rate. Eventually, when I am drawing big parts of my deck, I grab some oases to let me hit the $5 I need to to reach Horn of Plenty. But generally, I am discarding coppers to them rather than estates, to let my crossroads draw more.
A few more notes. HoP is big - I think it was at least $8 every time I played it - but what do you get with it? Well, I definitely wanted more, villages but mostly actions help the eventual vineyards, so BV->extra HoP makes a lot of sense. Eventually though, we get to a little bit of a dance where there is a trade-off between piling out and getting points. In these situations, in mirrors like this, you generally want to take points a little sooner than the expert engine player realizes. Reason is that the lead can actually act as a defense against the continued building up of an engine by the opponent, as you can pile out with a win (something that a BM opponent generally doesn't have the luxury of). So eventually I start grabbing provinces to cement my lead, and always always look out for ways to pile out with a win, as I eventually do.
Golem is something I'm not sure about here. I think it was good for him; for me, the thought was to play university more, but I am not so sure it was the right call. Probably should have headed for vineyards sooner, both of us. It's weird - usually you eventually pick up a second, maybe third potion, to really hammer down the vineyards, but here, we are drawing too much of our deck to make use, with absolutely no +buy on the board.

Game 2: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/21/game-20121221-161408-f3fdc35f.html
Full disclaimer, I got really lucky here on the start. And player position. So IGG and embargo. Embargo is a SUPER high skill card. So the interesting thing is what to embargo. If he had gone for potion, I probably try to go block scrying pool. If he goes for something conventional looking, I will block IGG while I have a lead in them, then head into a duchy/duke slog. And if he defends against that (as he does) by going for gainers, I definitely DON'T want to embargo IGG, since he can still get into them, and I build the boring old IGG rush deck, embargoing something nobody will buy, so that his gainers getting around it is absolutely unimportant, and my money lead rules the day. Basically, there wasn't much he could do here, but I had to have all this worked out, and he did well to go after the trickiest of these.

Game 3: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/21/game-20121221-152507-bdf27d76.html
I figure it fair to post a loss - I've definitely had my fair share! This game makes me think I have spent way too much time watching Stef and Marin. I see monument with something vaguely enginey and immediately try to figure out how to play it a million times. And I do! But there's a way you can do this while also buying provinces, which is more or less what TheSadPanda does. I lay off HARD on provinces, though part of me thinks that the big forge into the one province actually might have been what did me in here. I was always really close, but not quite getting there. I almost certainly should have done something more with inn and tunnel, and bought some more provinces earlier. I do like the preferential trashing of copper over estate early on with upgrade, to help cycling, particularly (well, basically entirely) because of crossroads. Well anyway, he played well here and I got too cute, a deserved win from him.

timchen

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 01:41:50 am »
0

In game 2, Isn't Panda's best move after seeing you opening an embargo is to get one embargo and try to draw embargo turn 3 and embargo the IGG? I just don't see how such initial discrepancy can be bridged if he does not stop you at the IGG rush.

Or at least, silver+silver or silver+oracle? I just don't see where can remodel+develop lead to on this board.
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dondon151

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 04:10:06 am »
0

So I think you definitely misplayed your strategy in game 3 a little bit.

First, I think it's worth grabbing a Potion and detouring for Alchemists early on (not with the opening though, because getting an Upgrade is super important). Just a couple of Alchemists can prevent nightmare draws like your turns 15 and 18.

Second, you were definitely right about forging stuff into Province as being a misstep, as with no +buy on this board and no other way for TheSadPanda to double-Province (he didn't have a Forge), you should really have been expecting to end the game on your terms, thus nullifying the turn advantage that player 1 has. The Forge was a mistake anyway, as 1-2 Upgrades can thin out your deck pretty quickly, you're drawing the entire thing soon enough, and the Forge becomes dead weight until the very end where you can potentially upgrade it into a Province.

Third, little things such as upgrading Estate -> Tunnel can give you 2 more VP (3 if you hadn't forged your third Estate).

Anyway it goes without saying that TheSadPanda also could have stepped up his execution in response, but the Monument engine isn't something to be written off here.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 04:11:31 am by dondon151 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 06:57:00 am »
0

In game 2, Isn't Panda's best move after seeing you opening an embargo is to get one embargo and try to draw embargo turn 3 and embargo the IGG? I just don't see how such initial discrepancy can be bridged if he does not stop you at the IGG rush.

Or at least, silver+silver or silver+oracle? I just don't see where can remodel+develop lead to on this board.
Embargo IGG? Sure, he can do that, but I can adjust my play accordingly, as noted above. If he goes like remodel/embargo, he's going to have very little sustainable buying power, and if he tries to embargo IGGs right away and then remodel into them, I can just get a remodel of my own.

The idea with remodel and develop is to be able to get around the embargo token, because you're gaining rather than buying. Is it the overall objective best? I don't know. But I think it was a good practical try.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 07:00:40 am »
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So I think you definitely misplayed your strategy in game 3 a little bit.

First, I think it's worth grabbing a Potion and detouring for Alchemists early on (not with the opening though, because getting an Upgrade is super important). Just a couple of Alchemists can prevent nightmare draws like your turns 15 and 18.

Second, you were definitely right about forging stuff into Province as being a misstep, as with no +buy on this board and no other way for TheSadPanda to double-Province (he didn't have a Forge), you should really have been expecting to end the game on your terms, thus nullifying the turn advantage that player 1 has. The Forge was a mistake anyway, as 1-2 Upgrades can thin out your deck pretty quickly, you're drawing the entire thing soon enough, and the Forge becomes dead weight until the very end where you can potentially upgrade it into a Province.

Third, little things such as upgrading Estate -> Tunnel can give you 2 more VP (3 if you hadn't forged your third Estate).

Anyway it goes without saying that TheSadPanda also could have stepped up his execution in response, but the Monument engine isn't something to be written off here.
Well, I didn't buy the forge - upgraded a gold into it. And part of the idea was that I could later upgrade it into province, though that was never safe. And the forge into province wasn't so much to get the province as to get rid of the other stuff, including that gold, in order to speed me up drawing my deck whole deck.
Upgrading estate into tunnel only grabs one point, I don't understand...

And yeah, obviously the engine can't just be written off, but on the other hand you can probably do both engine and grab provinces...

DG

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 07:01:21 am »
0

Well in game 2, it's still a loss, but should Panda have developed the remodel or remodeled the develop?
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-Stef-

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 10:33:12 am »
+2

Game 1 - This one I really like. Taking estates over coppers is definitely what got you the game. Very well played.

Game 2 - Here your 5/2 is lucky for sure, but he has to accept it and still play oracle/silver. Oracle/silver may not be as good as IGG/Embargo but still is a very reasonable opening on an IGG board. He'd still have a 35% chance or something like that. If you really embargo IGG I think his chances go up, because for non-IGG-rushes his start is better then yours. Opening Remodel/Develop feels like based on frustration by the 5/2 and reduces his chances to something annoyingly close to 0.

Game 3 - This is not the right board to skip provinces. It's too easy to build something that draws your entire deck without ever stalling. I'm pretty convinced the right opening here is Monument/Silver to get some upgrades ASAP. They should in fact get rid of the estates for silvers, to just buy some farming villages/nobles/maybe an inn.
Then get a tunnel (not too soon) so you can upgrade silver->more villages while getting new money for free. In the last stage of the game you can go "draw deck, play inn to discard 2 green cards, use native village to set them aside" which should allow you to just province every turn. Even faster if you start doing "free gold -> useless forge -> hurray province". The super-monument-stack will not be able to outrun that. I think both forge-based and alchemist-based strategies will also lose to this.
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dondon151

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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 01:28:10 pm »
0

Upgrading estate into tunnel only grabs one point, I don't understand...

You have 3 Estates.

Anyway just to make it clear, I am not advocating that the Monument strategy is superior; I think TheSadPanda really executed the preferred strategy rather poorly. But even if you pick the wrong strategy, it's helpful to know how to optimize it.
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Re: Three with TheSadPanda
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 12:00:45 am »
+2

TSP (as I now call him) is just so fun to play.
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