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Author Topic: Apparently Duchy/Duke CAN ignore Familiar? Even on a Wharf/Village engine board?  (Read 4199 times)

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zahlman

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And with Remake, too?!?!?!?!?

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-145600-d0387a25.html

I just... don't even. How is my deck the one that's continually clogged, when I gave him all the Curses? I can't really expect to let him keep taking Duchy/Duke and just piledrive Province, can I?
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DWetzel

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Well, even with all the junk, he's got about as much money density as you.  And he's aiming for $5 while you are aiming for $8.
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zahlman

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But why couldn't I build up money density with Remake? And what went wrong in building the draw engine?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 06:14:14 pm by zahlman »
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eHalcyon

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You only have 2 Wharves and 1 WV -- that's not really much of an engine.

Hoard would have helped you build your money.
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zahlman

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I don't hit $6+ until turn 10. Do I really want Gold or Hoard over the second Wharf?
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WanderingWinder

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You would do much better to open silver/potion, THEN go for remakes, THEN go into your engine. As it is, you have this very wonky thing moving around. And also don't draw very well. Or get nearly enough cards that actually help your deck get going.

clb

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Considering how quickly Hoard enables him to jump into the Duchies, I think that buying 3 Familiars is too many - that is, you would be better off buying Wharves and Villages so you can play your 1 Familiar more often. Also, having very large hands lets you be more choosy about what you trash.

A question for the forum - in this situation, is there any value to buying Duchies or Dukes to Apprentice? It seems that if you have a decent draw engine going, then this would allow you to seriously deprive your opponent of some points, but it does accelerate the 3-pile. What are the thoughts there?
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WanderingWinder

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Considering how quickly Hoard enables him to jump into the Duchies, I think that buying 3 Familiars is too many - that is, you would be better off buying Wharves and Villages so you can play your 1 Familiar more often. Also, having very large hands lets you be more choosy about what you trash.

A question for the forum - in this situation, is there any value to buying Duchies or Dukes to Apprentice? It seems that if you have a decent draw engine going, then this would allow you to seriously deprive your opponent of some points, but it does accelerate the 3-pile. What are the thoughts there?
Don't buy apprentice?

Edit: Eh, maybe. But I dont' think you want to buy duchies or duke in this situation, unless maybe you have hoard in play.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 06:44:39 pm by WanderingWinder »
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KingsSkort

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But why couldn't I build up money density with Remake?

Quote
— zahlman's turn 4 —
zahlman plays a Remake.
... trashing a Silver.
... gaining a Potion.
... trashing a Copper.
(zahlman reshuffles.)

...
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DG

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Lets ignore the draws since they really set you back and look at your play instead. You don't need a third familiar since your opponent isn't contesting curses. Instead you should be building up for a very big engine and that means wharves and worker's villages. You shouldn't be looking to buy any duchies, you should be looking to build towards double province turns (or maybe island+province), perhaps using a hoard to step up to the 16 coins needed. You might well run out of time making the big engine but unless you think big it will be difficult to sustain province buying deck and you will need to buy all the provinces.
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ftl

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You didn't really build an engine. You have one Village and a few Wharves.

What you played was much more like Big Money+Familiar+Wharf, even if you meant to build an engine. A Wharf engine should probably, just before greening, end up with a point where you draw your whole deck. You never even came close, I think.

Note how on a worker's village/wharf board, by turn 27(!!) you had only 3 provinces. If your opponent is not cursing you, that's actually quite slow for a Wharf game.

By the way, I see that nowhere in your summary - not in the thread title, or in your blurb - do you mention Hoard. Hoard was really the star of the show for your opponent - it's got great synergy with Duchy/Duke (makes buying Duchy with Hoard in play much better!), great with Island (again, VP to buy with hoard in play) and with Salvager (trashing those golds for $6). It seems to be a key card for your opponent; he *really* went for it, Salvageing Silvers multiple times to buy Hoards. 

Since your opponent didn't really attack you, perhaps its worth soloing this set a few times to compare? Try building the engine and see how fast you can make it. I bet that with a little bit of practice, you'll be able to piledrive Provinces+Islands by turn 27 instead of just having a few.

Hmm, other comments... I think I'll quote part of the Duke strategy article that would help.

First, playing against a Duchy/Duke opponent. You want to know that Duchy/Duke is a little better than going for Provinces on a straight-up Big Money board. So if you’re not going for the Dukes yourself, you must have a reason (this is very often the case). Usually that reason is because you think there’s a deck to be built that will get you ALL the Provinces before your opponent gets to 11 Duchy/Dukes. If that’s the case, you should NOT, I repeat NOT try to contest Duchies until very late (assuming that you’ve identified that your opponent is going Duchy/Duke, hold off on Duchies yourself until later than you normally would), when you’ve got the vast majority of your points, as they’ll only clog you up, probably much more so than your opponent.
Editor’s note: As DG says, “This section hints at how many games are lost on Duchy/Duke boards. If you buy a Duchy you’re going to score at least 3 for yourself but deny your opponent the same Duchy to score 3 + the number of Dukes they own. This is a big swing. So if you’re on a province strategy it’s very tempting to buy some Duchies as a spoiler, but one isn’t going to make much difference so you buy two or three, and then you’re inevitably sucked into a Duchy and Duke race that you haven’t prepared for and then can’t escape. The solutions are clearly to trust your initial judgement and just buy provinces or (more often) to prepare for Duchy/Duke from the start. On the other hand if you’re on a Duchy/Duke strategy then buying a province is is nearly always worse than buying a Duchy.”

You dipped into duchies to deny your opponent some of them - but in doing so, prevented yourself from piledriving provinces, which is what you need to do to beat duke/duchy.
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ftl

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Here's a sample game. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-172504-f4fa32bd.html . 66 points (8 provinces, 7 islands, 1 duchy) in 26 turns, while having played Familiar enough times to give out 10 curses had I had an opponent.

And this is pretty far from optimal I'm pretty sure. Proper use of hoard/salvager or hoard/apprentice could speed that up. I bet the target to hit for 8 provinces is much lower than 26 turns. Someone better at this game than I would probably crush that.
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ftl

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...ok wow this is more like how this board can go. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-173645-1d3d72cb.html . With Hoard/Salvager/Worker's Village/Wharf, 17 turns to 8 provinces.

And I bet that's not even optimal; I sort of floundered in what to buy when...

Well, it's probably not optimal, but it's close to the best that I personally can do. I got 16 turns to 8 provinces here http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-180207-f6985761.html , but usually I hit 18-19.

In neither of those do I end up with 10 plays of familiar though.

Still would be enough to beat up badly on any big money deck, though.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 09:06:38 pm by ftl »
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eHalcyon

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I think this might be a board where you can skip Familiar, because a Wharf engine should just be SO fast with Hoard and Salvager.
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eliegel34

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I'm not quite sure, but I like the idea of ignoring Familiar.  It slows down your early game so much, and I think a Wharf/WV Engine would be able to trash fast enough to beat this.  Either of them should beat Duchy/Duke. 

I would open Remake/Silver, and grab one more silver before buying nothing but Worker's Village and Wharf.  Once you can draw your whole deck, or just before start to buy a little more money to get up to 16.  In a sample it took me 17 turns to get 8 provinces. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-221113-ddb342ec.html

Also this kingdom is really fun to play around with.  This is definitely not realistic, but hey 120 points in 19 turns is fun :).

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/18/game-20121218-220506-9fddd8cd.html
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blueblimp

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I think this might be a board where you can skip Familiar, because a Wharf engine should just be SO fast with Hoard and Salvager.
The presence of Remake also makes skipping Familiar more attractive, because once you're drawing your entire deck and have already Remake'd your starting cards, you can Remake curses two at a time. Given how powerful a Wharf engine is (even though Worker's Village is a weak village paired with Wharf), Familiar is not scary at all. I'd be much more scared of losing the Wharf split or Duchy split--not sure which is more important.
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eHalcyon

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Would it be viable to build a Wharf engine into Duchy/Duke?  Or would it be better to just run straight into Duchy/Duke with Hoard?
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