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[Morgrim7]

Lab used to be a trap card for me, as was Thief.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I agree with the OP with regards to Hoard. People should not autobuy green with Hoard in play. Particularly in the middle parts of the game, it's often much better to take Gold or Hoard (or $5 action) instead of Duchy + Gold. People tend to start greening too early with Hoard.

And just because your deck isn't ready for Duchies and Estates yet doesn't mean you shouldn't have gotten Hoard. Sometimes draws just fall against you and you have less than $8 with your Hoard. That doesn't mean it's time to dip for Duchies, and it doesn't mean buying the Hoard was a mistake.

I think the amount of times your deck can tolerate Prov+Gold but can't tolerate Duchy+Gold are quite few. If you're still interested in buying actions or Gold, then it really doesn't make much sense to have bought a Hoard last shuffle. You should have bought that action or Gold instead of the Hoard, and then you could have used them on this turn to buy the Hoard. I think that Hoards should generally be acquired on the last shuffle before you want to start greening.

Can you imagine a situation where your deck wants a Province but not a Duchy? Then you should be able to imagine a situation where your deck wants Prov+Gold but not Duchy+Gold.

And the second part has some good advice, but I think you're overestimating the player's ability to see the future. Sure you want to build your deck so that the Hoards are used most effectively, but you can't control your draws in Dominion. If I buy a King's Court and I draw it dead, does that mean I shouldn't have bought a King's Court? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The same thing applies to Hoard.

The main thing, and the point of the original post as I understood it is: don't auto buy green just because you have a Hoard in play. It's similar to the (very good) advice I've seen you give about the price of cards: don't be afraid to overspend if that is the best play for your deck. Don't use the Gold gaining if its not the best play. Think about it first.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I agree with the OP with regards to Hoard. People should not autobuy green with Hoard in play. Particularly in the middle parts of the game, it's often much better to take Gold or Hoard (or $5 action) instead of Duchy + Gold. People tend to start greening too early with Hoard.

And just because your deck isn't ready for Duchies and Estates yet doesn't mean you shouldn't have gotten Hoard. Sometimes draws just fall against you and you have less than $8 with your Hoard. That doesn't mean it's time to dip for Duchies, and it doesn't mean buying the Hoard was a mistake.

I think the amount of times your deck can tolerate Prov+Gold but can't tolerate Duchy+Gold are quite few. If you're still interested in buying actions or Gold, then it really doesn't make much sense to have bought a Hoard last shuffle. You should have bought that action or Gold instead of the Hoard, and then you could have used them on this turn to buy the Hoard. I think that Hoards should generally be acquired on the last shuffle before you want to start greening.

Can you imagine a situation where your deck wants a Province but not a Duchy? Then you should be able to imagine a situation where your deck wants Prov+Gold but not Duchy+Gold.

And the second part has some good advice, but I think you're overestimating the player's ability to see the future. Sure you want to build your deck so that the Hoards are used most effectively, but you can't control your draws in Dominion. If I buy a King's Court and I draw it dead, does that mean I shouldn't have bought a King's Court? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The same thing applies to Hoard.

The main thing, and the point of the original post as I understood it is: don't auto buy green just because you have a Hoard in play. It's similar to the (very good) advice I've seen you give about the price of cards: don't be afraid to overspend if that is the best play for your deck. Don't use the Gold gaining if its not the best play. Think about it first.

With a lot of strategies, you don't want to start buying Duchies as early as you want to start buying Provinces because you worry about eroding your deck value. But if you're in a position where you already have a Hoard in play, your deck should already be in a position where you're not that concerned about your deck value eroding. My point is that the advice for beginners regarding Hoard should not be about what to buy when Hoard is in play, it should be about when to buy Hoard. The one sentence version should be: "You should not buy a Hoard unless you're ready to start fully greening once it gets into play."

King's Court is entirely different because you buy KCs while building up your deck, and things are bound to not be lining up right at that stage. But when you have enough money to buy basically anything, and you opt to purchase essentially a Silver that gives you Gold when you buy VP cards, your deck should already be in the state where it's as stable as it's going to get. Buying a Hoard is a commitment to greening and you should usually follow through.

[WheresMyElephant]

Hunting Party

This card works best if you have relatively few unique cards in your deck, because this means you will hit the unique ones you do have much more often. So don't spend that extra $2 or $3 on a Pawn or Great Hall, just because you can. That single Great Hall may be the reason you didn't skip everything until you hit your Mountebank.

1 Gold + 1 Silver +1 Copper +1 terminal providing at least $2 (Mountebank, Monument, Horse Traders, Mandarin, etc..) = Province

Beware of cantrips and make sure you play them before your last Hunting Party, otherwise you'll trigger a reshuffle with all of the skipped cards (most likely Coppers and Estates).

This, but sometimes I get the feeling people have forgotten you CAN just use HP as a Lab. It's a little niche because HP engines are so strong that they're usually the best option, but not always. Sometimes they're counterindicated by things like Shelters/Ruins/Swindler, and on rare occasions there might just plain be something better available.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I agree with the OP with regards to Hoard. People should not autobuy green with Hoard in play. Particularly in the middle parts of the game, it's often much better to take Gold or Hoard (or $5 action) instead of Duchy + Gold. People tend to start greening too early with Hoard.

And just because your deck isn't ready for Duchies and Estates yet doesn't mean you shouldn't have gotten Hoard. Sometimes draws just fall against you and you have less than $8 with your Hoard. That doesn't mean it's time to dip for Duchies, and it doesn't mean buying the Hoard was a mistake.

I think the amount of times your deck can tolerate Prov+Gold but can't tolerate Duchy+Gold are quite few. If you're still interested in buying actions or Gold, then it really doesn't make much sense to have bought a Hoard last shuffle. You should have bought that action or Gold instead of the Hoard, and then you could have used them on this turn to buy the Hoard. I think that Hoards should generally be acquired on the last shuffle before you want to start greening.

Can you imagine a situation where your deck wants a Province but not a Duchy? Then you should be able to imagine a situation where your deck wants Prov+Gold but not Duchy+Gold.

And the second part has some good advice, but I think you're overestimating the player's ability to see the future. Sure you want to build your deck so that the Hoards are used most effectively, but you can't control your draws in Dominion. If I buy a King's Court and I draw it dead, does that mean I shouldn't have bought a King's Court? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The same thing applies to Hoard.

The main thing, and the point of the original post as I understood it is: don't auto buy green just because you have a Hoard in play. It's similar to the (very good) advice I've seen you give about the price of cards: don't be afraid to overspend if that is the best play for your deck. Don't use the Gold gaining if its not the best play. Think about it first.

With a lot of strategies, you don't want to start buying Duchies as early as you want to start buying Provinces because you worry about eroding your deck value. But if you're in a position where you already have a Hoard in play, your deck should already be in a position where you're not that concerned about your deck value eroding. My point is that the advice for beginners regarding Hoard should not be about what to buy when Hoard is in play, it should be about when to buy Hoard. The one sentence version should be: "You should not buy a Hoard unless you're ready to start fully greening once it gets into play."

Why shouldn't advice to beginners be about both things? When to buy Hoard and whether to buy green with it. I think both are important. Also, you should always be worried about your deck value eroding if it prevents you from getting the points you need to win (i.e. missing out on Provinces by picking up Duchies too soon).

King's Court is entirely different because you buy KCs while building up your deck, and things are bound to not be lining up right at that stage. But when you have enough money to buy basically anything, and you opt to purchase essentially a Silver that gives you Gold when you buy VP cards, your deck should already be in the state where it's as stable as it's going to get. Buying a Hoard is a commitment to greening and you should usually follow through.

Hoard as silver is okay for building up your deck in lots of situations, it's perfectly fine for purchasing more actions, Gold, or more Hoards. And more importantly, buying Hoard earlier than you are suggesting gives you the chance to make the very powerful Province+Gold buy. And again, your advice is too restrictive and assumes too much foresight in the mind of the player. When I buy a Hoard, I sure don't know what my next shuffle through my deck will look like, and I'm definitely not committing myself to buying Duchies or Estates just because those are the hands I draw with a Hoard.

Anyway, that's all I'll probably say about this since I think its clear we won't come to agreement. But I do think most of what you said is true, I just think you are placing too much emphasis on one aspect and ascribing too much predictive power to the Dominion player. I just want people to not automatically buy green with Hoard, and of course I also want them to think about when they should buy Hoards.

[PSGarak]

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I don't think this is true. Nobles can be the primary focus of your deck a lot of the time. You don't want to use them as a village (trying to use Nobles as a village IS a beginner trap), but they function as ably as most other sources of +cards. And the extra VPs can make up for the slowness of building the engine. You do of course need some way of being able to afford the Nobles, but THREE Golds is way overdoing it. Usually a couple Silvers and money from actions is good enough.

I don't think we're disagreeing all that much. When I say linchpin, I mean that I've seen green players think that Nobles is sufficient as a primary source of Draw and Actions simultaneously, which we agree will always end in tears. Nobles can be a significant engine component, but not the only engine component, especially at its price point. Three golds may be overdoing it, but I've won more games than I've lost by being patient and building my deck, while my opponent rushes for Nobles and buys the first two.

----

Switching topics, I see rookies mis-play Trash for Benefit cards with regularity. Inexperienced players are often uncomfortable sacrificing decent cards to a TfB. This severely limits their ability to make the best use of what these cards have to offer.

Part of this, especially with Remodel, is seeing the word "Trash" and thinking the card is a trasher, and using it mostly on Copper and Estates. Trashing a single copper for no or small benefit is not effective use of a card from your hand, and is usually a waste of a turn. Remodel is better used to gain Golds than trash Coppers, and I've been pleased more often than disappointed when I cross my fingers and draw 5-6 cards with an Apprentice. Newbies don't make those big plays, or even mid-range plays, often enough to make those cards worthwhile.

By contrast, Upgrade is pretty efficient working on your starting deck, so it's harder to mis-use.

[dondon151]

Playing 2 nobles for +2 action/+3 cards gives you a hand size of 6. Used two cards to get three. That's one lab.

No, 2 Nobles is actually 1 lab.  First is two actions.  Second is three cards.  You are left with one action remaining and a 6 card hand which is the same as playing 1 lab.  So, 6 Nobles is three labs assuming you get them to match up.

I'm going to be pedantic here and assert that 2 Nobles is equivalent to 2 Labs because you also have the 4 VP that you wouldn't have otherwise. Imagine that you play 2 Labs and you always draw the equivalent of Fairgrounds with 10 - 14 unique cards in the deck.

I suppose if one is purely concerned with equivalencies that have no practical meaning outside of discussion, buying 2 Nobles is equivalent to buying 2 Labs and a Fairgrounds, or spending $12 and 2 buys to get $16 and 3 buys worth of value into your deck.

[jonts26]

Playing 2 nobles for +2 action/+3 cards gives you a hand size of 6. Used two cards to get three. That's one lab.

No, 2 Nobles is actually 1 lab.  First is two actions.  Second is three cards.  You are left with one action remaining and a 6 card hand which is the same as playing 1 lab.  So, 6 Nobles is three labs assuming you get them to match up.

I'm going to be pedantic here and assert that 2 Nobles is equivalent to 2 Labs because you also have the 4 VP that you wouldn't have otherwise. Imagine that you play 2 Labs and you always draw the equivalent of Fairgrounds with 10 - 14 unique cards in the deck.

I suppose if one is purely concerned with equivalencies that have no practical meaning outside of discussion, buying 2 Nobles is equivalent to buying 2 Labs and a Fairgrounds, or spending $12 and 2 buys to get $16 and 3 buys worth of value into your deck.

I know we love pedantry here, but this is taking hair splitting to a new level. It's pretty obvious we were only talking about the on play effects.

[dondon151]

Obviously, Nobles is not Nobles without the VP to consider.

[Voltgloss]

In my RL experience, Throne Room is often a beginner trap.  "Cool, with a $4 card I can get double-worth out of that awesome $5 card on the table!  WHAT VALUE!"  Then at the end of the game:  "Man, I can't believe how many times I drew that Throne Room dead!"

Obviously TR has its times to shine, but beginners have trouble realizing how TR really wants action-density (and how to best go about creating that action-density).  It's a similar issue as Treasure Map, but I think more insidious, because I think a beginner is more likely to realize "oh I need to trash to increase the odds of getting my Treasure Maps together" then they are to realize "hmm to get real value out of my Throne Rooms I need some tighter deck management here."

It's especially bad when a beginner thinks "my Throne Rooms aren't hitting my actions so the obvious solution is to buy more Throne Rooms."  One reshuffle later:  "oh God I drew my two Throne Rooms together without any other actions!"

[PSGarak]

Obviously, Nobles is not Nobles without the VP to consider.

No one's disputing whether Nobles are good value for the money, they certainly are in many situations. We're disputing whether inexperienced players will mis-use them, by prioritizing them too high and/or buying them too early. Mid-game, I would usually rather have the 2 labs without a farmland if I had the option, so I would be spending $12 over two buys to pick up something I consider inferior to what costs $10 over two buys. Investing in Nobles too early is essentially equivalent to greening too early, but it's more common for newbies to make that mistake because Nobles look more useful than they really are.

[andy]

Part of this, especially with Remodel, is seeing the word "Trash" and thinking the card is a trasher, and using it mostly on Copper and Estates. Trashing a single copper for no or small benefit is not effective use of a card from your hand, and is usually a waste of a turn. Remodel is better used to gain Golds than trash Coppers, and I've been pleased more often than disappointed when I cross my fingers and draw 5-6 cards with an Apprentice. Newbies don't make those big plays, or even mid-range plays, often enough to make those cards worthwhile.

Great point. Develop as well. I feel like I've often seen players buy Develop with seemingly no goal other than to make one or two Estates into Silver and maybe get rid of Copper here and there (at least they get to topdeck the Silvers). In particular Develop gives you more surplus the higher value your trashed card is.

[GendoIkari]

In my RL experience, Throne Room is often a beginner trap.  "Cool, with a $4 card I can get double-worth out of that awesome $5 card on the table!  WHAT VALUE!"  Then at the end of the game:  "Man, I can't believe how many times I drew that Throne Room dead!"

Sounds like you're thinking of less "noob" beginners than I do when I think of Throne Room... the fact that they are thinking of it as a copy of a $5 card that only costs $4 is thinking that I see as beyond the beginner phase... I know that when I first thought Throne Room was so great, I would be using it on Spy and Village and such... never thinking about the fact that a second copy of the card I played with Throne Room could have been there instead of Throne Room.

[LastFootnote]

In my RL experience, Throne Room is often a beginner trap.  "Cool, with a $4 card I can get double-worth out of that awesome $5 card on the table!  WHAT VALUE!"  Then at the end of the game:  "Man, I can't believe how many times I drew that Throne Room dead!"

Sounds like you're thinking of less "noob" beginners than I do when I think of Throne Room... the fact that they are thinking of it as a copy of a $5 card that only costs $4 is thinking that I see as beyond the beginner phase... I know that when I first thought Throne Room was so great, I would be using it on Spy and Village and such... never thinking about the fact that a second copy of the card I played with Throne Room could have been there instead of Throne Room.

To be fair, I'm more likely to buy Spy in a game with Throne Room. You end up with an extra Action, which you wouldn't if you just played two Spies. It's not as good as Throne Room/Laboratory, but it's still a decent enough faux Village when you need one.

[Morgrim7]

Remodel, obviously. Remodel copper-estate-remodel-gold-province.