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[() | (_) ^/]

... programming by candlelight since there was no electricity there yet?

... coding with quill on parchment since there were no computers yet?

http://xkcd.com/378/

[flies]

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

+10

[Kirian]

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

I dunno... I think I prefer elegant to pretty.  But then I'm a form-before-function guy.

[Captain_Frisk]

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

I dunno... I think I prefer elegant to pretty.  But then I'm a form-before-function guy.

I prefer the text interface as something that I can do anywhere, but IMHO i don't really care.  My issues with the goko implementation are primarily that in addition to being slower, its harder to play in distracted mode.

I play nightfall and ascension on my ipad, and I don't care there.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window, and it would be super nice if I could just have the text log up so I can see what the hell you did on your turn so I can easily catch up.

If they gave me a pop out window that gave me chat and game log (see gchat in gmail), I'd probably buy it right now.

[Insomniac]

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

I dunno... I think I prefer elegant to pretty.  But then I'm a form-before-function guy.

I prefer the text interface as something that I can do anywhere, but IMHO i don't really care.  My issues with the goko implementation are primarily that in addition to being slower, its harder to play in distracted mode.

I play nightfall and ascension on my ipad, and I don't care there.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window, and it would be super nice if I could just have the text log up so I can see what the hell you did on your turn so I can easily catch up.

If they gave me a pop out window that gave me chat and game log (see gchat in gmail), I'd probably buy it right now.

I would LOVE the chat/log being pop-outable

[Ozle]

.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window,

Hang on there Frisky boy....wooooah

[Lashof]

I play nightfall and ascension on my ipad, and I don't care there.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window, and it would be super nice if I could just have the text log up so I can see what the hell you did on your turn so I can easily catch up.

Actually, all that's really needed is to run animations and sounds when goko isn't the active tab.  It's really annoying that they have a "hey, it's your turn to do something" ping, but that ping only plays exactly when I don't need it.

[Insomniac]

Also CF, at least in THEORY they do want to put it on ipad/iphone/android eventually so they are probably trying to not cement the interface to a PC style.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also CF, at least in THEORY they do want to put it on ipad/iphone/android eventually so they are probably trying to not cement the interface to a PC style.

I agree.  Just give me the OPTION.

[Captain_Frisk]

.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window,

Hang on there Frisky boy....wooooah

Penny Arcade Reference

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/03/24

[werothegreat]

.  But if its going to be PC only, you have to accept that I'm probably going to be watching videos of theory slap boxing the one eyed champ in the other window,

Hang on there Frisky boy....wooooah

Penny Arcade Reference

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/1999/03/24

Actually just watched JonTron's video on Daikatana.  What a shitty game.

[synpax]

I think we've had enough users whose first (and often only) post is a non-constructive criticism of Goko that "trolling" is no longer too strong a word.

What does it say to you, then, that so many of us have come here, knowing X reads this forum, registered, and posted ONLY to stand-up for keeping Iso up because we can't stand Goko?

Here are some constructive criticism of Goko:
- It's slow.
- Icon can't be chosen properly because the leaderboard covers it up (in Chrome).
- I can't type in chat.
- The design is fundamentally broken. It is taking a game that uses physical cards for IRL games for practical and numismatic purposes, and then, while making it an online game, tried to create a direct table-top version on a computer, not realizing that the game is more than just cards with words and artwork.

This is akin to an email client that makes you tear open a virtual envelope to read a message and is the biggest sign that they do NOT get design and they do not GET Dominion. They are limiting themselves needlessly with the constraints of physical cards when the physical cards are a means to play the game, not the game itself (IE - like building a physical house of cards is).

[synpax]

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

"Pretty" is subjective. I think modern, minimialism is prettier than a digital, fake wood table. I am a designer, so I know that whatever the client wants, they get.

However, you do realize you can have pretty with Iso, right? It's just a matter of a plugin. One already exists that gives you some card art. The rest is just a matter of simple programming. A plugin COULD make ISO look and function just like Goko.

[synpax]

Once my contract with RGG expires... nothing will change. I'm not going anywhere. I will not possibly hate Goko enough to leave RGG.

Thanks for your reply. I feared that this was an RRG thing but since it sounded like Iso operates with your personal 'permission,' I had some hope.

Maybe there is someone at RRG who can consider this...

I guess I wonder why they didn't develop the talent in-house to go after this market. Buy Iso, charge a subscription, fund some contests to get 'pretty' CSS options for users, do a marketing push, etc. We're talking less than $100k here with some profit sharing for Doug. Revenue at $4.99 /mo 2500 players to start + banner ads + merch + upgrades (horse armor for your avatar, house to showcase 'achievements') + sponsorships = you could turn a healthy profit.

[Insomniac]

All I know is that a portion of the decision was desire to have it available on all platforms (iPhone/iPad/Android/PC) and Goko offered that. Goko asked dougz if he would be interested in being a part of the official team, he was not. Similarily with RFTG Goko asked Keldon (who did the offline/online version currently downloadable) to join the team and in that case he did.

So while Iso itself was never considered (it's not cross platform friendly) and Goko wants to build a system for many games not just dominion so Goko themselves also never considered Iso.

On this topic

The prettiness is a plus!  Even lifelong gamers like me LIKE pretty, elegant interfaces.  I'm not saying Goko is elegant, but it is pretty.  They get points for it.

"Pretty" is subjective. I think modern, minimialism is prettier than a digital, fake wood table. I am a designer, so I know that whatever the client wants, they get.

However, you do realize you can have pretty with Iso, right? It's just a matter of a plugin. One already exists that gives you some card art. The rest is just a matter of simple programming. A plugin COULD make ISO look and function just like Goko.

By the same theory you can make a plugin to "uglify" or "minimilize" goko

[werothegreat]

I think we've had enough users whose first (and often only) post is a non-constructive criticism of Goko that "trolling" is no longer too strong a word.

This is akin to an email client that makes you tear open a virtual envelope to read a message and is the biggest sign that they do NOT get design and they do not GET Dominion. They are limiting themselves needlessly with the constraints of physical cards when the physical cards are a means to play the game, not the game itself (IE - like building a physical house of cards is).

The fact that it is played with cards is part of Dominion's charm.  Even though Iso was just little icons, you still had a hand and a deck, and it still referred to cards.  It didn't have shuffling animations or cards flying around because, hey, that would be hard to program, and DougZ was really only interested in testing the cards.  The fact that it's done with cards is sort of the soul of Dominion.  If you take that out, it's no longer Dominion.  Just like email is no longer posted mail - it's something different entirely.  If you play a computer version of Monopoly, do you get rid of the board?  Do you stop playing with the little iron, thimble and battleship?  Do you suddenly make it all abstract?  No.  You don't.

Now let's get to the practical point of selling this computerized game.  If you try to market Iso for the general market, as is, no one will buy it.  They'll take one look and say "This doesn't look finished - this looks like an alpha version.  This looks boring.  I'm not going to pay money for this."  Whereas Goko, flawed as it is, is what we have come to expect from a computerized gaming experience.  Now Iso is fine for a free product.  Many of you the members here were introduced to Dominion through Iso.  But would they have paid money for it?  Would they have seen it on Steam and thought "Wow, I should play that!"  No.  For a designer, you seem to know very little about the general public's mindset on design.  You may like modern minimalism, but most other people don't.

[werothegreat]

I guess I wonder why they didn't develop the talent in-house to go after this market. Buy Iso, charge a subscription, fund some contests to get 'pretty' CSS options for users, do a marketing push, etc. We're talking less than $100k here with some profit sharing for Doug. Revenue at $4.99 /mo 2500 players to start + banner ads + merch + upgrades (horse armor for your avatar, house to showcase 'achievements') + sponsorships = you could turn a healthy profit.

DougZ was not interested in developing a professional version, and Goko wanted to start from scratch, because they wanted a platform that could play multiple games.

Also, I much prefer the one-time purchase to a monthly fee.  I really, really, really detest monthly fees.  This is why Guild Wars is the only MMO I'll ever play consistently.

[LastFootnote]

It's the double post thread!

[LastFootnote]

Everybody double post! 

[LastFootnote]

Or triple post, if that's your thing.

[ftl]

Maybe there is someone at RRG who can consider this...

I guess I wonder why they didn't develop the talent in-house to go after this market. Buy Iso, charge a subscription, fund some contests to get 'pretty' CSS options for users, do a marketing push, etc. We're talking less than $100k here with some profit sharing for Doug. Revenue at $4.99 /mo 2500 players to start + banner ads + merch + upgrades (horse armor for your avatar, house to showcase 'achievements') + sponsorships = you could turn a healthy profit.

There is no big corporate 'they'. RGG is two people - Jay Tummelson and his wife.

And, unsurprisingly, they had no intention of suddenly taking on a SECOND job of maintaining and monetizing an online game, in addition to their usual job of publishing physical games.

So which one of them do you expect to "consider that idea" and "develop talent in-house" and "do a marketing push"? And why on earth would they consider doing that rather than outsourcing it to a different company?

[greatexpectations]

this kind of talk seems to come up a lot so here we go.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Isotropic#Isotropic_As_Official_Online_Dominion

feel free to edit in (or cite!) anything that i left out.

[synpax]

The fact that it is played with cards is part of Dominion's charm.

Not really. How many games have you played? How many works of random fantasy art have you stared at for just as long.

Remember: the only reason IRL is played with cards is because _there is no other way to do it_.

In Vegas, for example, many tables are replacing cards with digital tables, and they are well received so far.

Just like email is no longer posted mail - it's something different entirely. 

No, the purpose of it is the same. To communicate.

Militia is a card. It isn't an actual group of irregular soldiers rounded up. The card represents an abstract idea.

If you play a computer version of Monopoly, do you get rid of the board?  Do you stop playing with the little iron, thimble and battleship?  Do you suddenly make it all abstract?  No.  You don't.

Who said you had to make it abstract?

You do get rid of the shaking of die (they are rolled automatically), you get rid of the cash, the deeds, and, most importantly, the banker, which the computer handles. And then you add some things, like sound effects (cash register noises), video effects (rather than being little static pieces of iron, the avatars move and interact with each other).

Now let's get to the practical point of selling this computerized game.  If you try to market Iso for the general market, as is, no one will buy it.

Which is why I suggested giving options to users. For example, why not visually represent the elements interacting with each other using 3D animations. Gosh, if cards is all we're doing, then Iso does that already with one of those plugins.

Whereas Goko, flawed as it is, is what we have come to expect from a computerized gaming experience.

Not me. I expect either full interactive with creative animations or something completely streamlined. Not something that just cut-and-pastes design over from a card game.

For a designer, you seem to know very little about the general public's mindset on design.  You may like modern minimalism, but most other people don't.

You haven't paid any attention to anything I've said so far. Have an argument with someone else. I'm not sure you are capable of grasping my point.

[RiemannZetaJones]

I remember when Goko was much buggier and harder to use than it is today. I am sure it will continue to improve.

The AI is really impressive to me, although I don't know how difficult designing such a thing would be it seems pretty fantastic that it can play like a tolerably strong player on any kingdom.

I also think that the fringing effects on cards, blue for play, orange for discard, red for trash iirc, are a step up from what isotropic had. I remember when I first started playing on iso I used to click on cards to try to discard them, but of course that was never implemented in iso, probably because people might get confused and click to discard when they really meant to click to play. The fringing on Goko really helps avoid that problem.

[eHalcyon]

Remember: the only reason IRL is played with cards is because _there is no other way to do it_.

This is really a matter of opinion.  Some people like playing with real cards.  I do.  I enjoy playing the physical game. 

You don't have to play with cards IRL.  You could set around a table with your friends, break out your laptops and play on isotropic.

Please understand that there are many, many people here who do in fact feel the same way as you.  They love isotropic and would much prefer it to Goko.  But this discussion has been had many times over, and there really isn't any recourse left.  Thus, people are trying to see the best in Goko because, soon enough, it will be all that's left.

And that's OK.  Goko isn't that bad, and it should continue improving.  In the meantime, keep playing iso while it's still around.