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[Cave-o-sapien]

Dracs* like Donate and Keep (and cards like Chapel) pretty dramatically change the way the game plays at the table in what I believe to be an intentional way.  (Unlike, say, Rebuild, which often dominates Kingdoms in a way I suspect was less intentional.)  I'm not sure anything in Renaissance comes quite to that level, although Capitalism might be close.

Cathedral is probably pretty close to Donate.

Agree.

I think Cathedral is a lot closer than Capitalism to Donate's warping power.

[Donald X.]

Ahh, I thought you meant something like "it should have been blue but we forgot to put the Reaction color."  Yeah, we noticed that the cards seemed a bit washed-out color-wise.  Fortunately it doesn't affect gameplay.

The context was LastFootnote complaining about the layout guy.

Dracs* like Donate and Keep (and cards like Chapel) pretty dramatically change the way the game plays at the table in what I believe to be an intentional way.  (Unlike, say, Rebuild, which often dominates Kingdoms in a way I suspect was less intentional.)  I'm not sure anything in Renaissance comes quite to that level, although Capitalism might be close.  Do you intentionally look for/design a "big splash" or two for your sets, or is it just a result of exploring the design space, or...?

I'm always trying to dramatically change the game, but not every card needs to do that. I don't normally worry about having especially exciting cards, because I have them; I would worry about it if I didn't.

[ipofanes]

I am really amazed over how the game is balanced, for instance in ways the Journey token has about similar significance for all applications (so there's no no-brainer strategy to get Guide only for preparing the next Pilgrimage) and in that Lurker warps but won't break the game. How Old Witch is a thunderstorm to your deck and a soothing Sun afterwards, how Saunavanto nets actions during midgame with little payload and loses the draw-your-deck ability once payload is added.

[MattLee]

I picked up Renaissance this week week and I loved it! I've always been a fan of the simpler sets, my favorite being Seaside and my wife's being the Base set, so getting a new expansion somewhere around that complexity has been fun for us. You said in the secret history that expansions have gotten too complex and that this one was made intentionally simple. Where do you think future expansions will fall on the complexity scale?

[dz]

Oh boy, another question about complexity and expansions. Well sadly any future expansions will have to resort to complexity. Here are some Donald X quotes from a couple months ago.

One issue with expansions over spin-offs is that they get more complex over time. This totally happened. Renaissance struggles to be simpler, but it's not like I can just do that every time and get that level of complexity. You really run out of simple stuff. Spin-offs offer the chance to do new simple cards based on whatever other elements the game has.

You have to put progressively more effort into making designs simple as there are more cards, but that doesn't mean simple designs have become impossible.

Similarly you can keep getting toothpaste from a tube forever; you just need to apply more and more force. http://wondermark.com/776/

Which is to say, I disagree. And I mean there's no way out, there's no, oh there's the secret corner of simple cards. For example, Smithy is +3 Cards. That's the end of the line for that level of simplicity; there's no compelling single + left to do. Whatever hope +4 Cards had vanished when I did +4 Cards with a bonus. I could potentially do one via having a new kind of cost like debt, or a new kind of + like +Coffers... but that's added complexity, I just moved it to the rulebook. I can't make the same argument for e.g. Harbinger's level of complexity, and there is probably stuff left to do at that level. But you definitely run out. It's not just a question of how lazy I am. There is some amount of complexity, that Dominion has already used, where you can keep going long enough to not worry about it; the goal though is to be less complex than that.

I will explain it in detail. Card text is made up of qualified rules atoms strung together by program flow. Rules atoms are the smallest things you can do in the game; qualifiers are the most basic ways of distinguishing things. Program flow is logic for doing things - "do a then b," "if x do a else do b" and so on. There are only so many rules atoms, only so many qualifiers, and only so many ways to have programs flow. For a certain number of steps, there is a finite amount you can do; it's inarguable. And Dominion then drops huge chunks of possibilities by avoiding having cards that are so similar that players wouldn't like it. As well as e.g. by avoiding cards that would just be stupid. It also has very few rules atoms.

There are two kinds of simple cards in Renaissance. There are cards with no new mechanics (yes counting Coffers as new), like Scholar. And then there are the ones with new mechanics, like Silk Merchant.

Silk Merchant requires a bunch of rules. They are in the rulebook instead of on the card, but they're still there, you still have to learn them. If we put them on the card it would be a mess.

It's this big trick, that you can hide rules in the rulebook, and act like you have something simpler. You do actually have something simpler, in that, you only learn what Villagers are once, and then know what they are for several cards that use them. Six cards with villagers is simpler than six cards with different mechanics. But still, that first card is actually more complex than if it were just loaded up with text explaining the ability; it's that, plus you also have to pick up the rulebook.

It's no coincidence that Renaissance, trying to be simpler, has these rulebook mechanics. Look how sleek and pretty Silk Merchant is. And Villagers and Coffers are two very easy to learn things, they are some of the simplest possible things tokens could mean in Dominion. As these basic things get used up, the rulebook mechanics get less easy to learn, and worse in all other respects too; a classic thing is just, Dominion doesn't give you much to hang effects on, when you want something to be relevant in nearly every game with it. I mean the same logic that says that you run out of simple things to do, extends to stuff that refers you to the rulebook; it just feels like you can get way more complex there because you've hidden the rules. But, the point here is, yes, I leaned on tokens to try to have a simpler set. And that's the big thing you can do to keep making expansions: add rulebook text and components.

But I don't think it's good to have Dominion expansions where every card sends you to the rulebook. The sets need non-rulebook cards too. And you run out of simple things to do there.

[Donald X.]

I picked up Renaissance this week week and I loved it! I've always been a fan of the simpler sets, my favorite being Seaside and my wife's being the Base set, so getting a new expansion somewhere around that complexity has been fun for us. You said in the secret history that expansions have gotten too complex and that this one was made intentionally simple. Where do you think future expansions will fall on the complexity scale?

They will try to be as simple as Renaissance, but I don't know how well I'll do there. I'll have to put in the work to know for sure though.

[Cave-o-sapien]

I picked up Renaissance this week week and I loved it! I've always been a fan of the simpler sets, my favorite being Seaside and my wife's being the Base set, so getting a new expansion somewhere around that complexity has been fun for us. You said in the secret history that expansions have gotten too complex and that this one was made intentionally simple. Where do you think future expansions will fall on the complexity scale?

They will try to be as simple as Renaissance, but I don't know how well I'll do there. I'll have to put in the work to know for sure though.

There are plenty of simple game mechanics so far untouched by Dominion, such as dexterity and social deduction. Clear opportunity to incorporate the mythical nose-stealing competition into the game.

[LostPhoenix]

I picked up Renaissance this week week and I loved it! I've always been a fan of the simpler sets, my favorite being Seaside and my wife's being the Base set, so getting a new expansion somewhere around that complexity has been fun for us. You said in the secret history that expansions have gotten too complex and that this one was made intentionally simple. Where do you think future expansions will fall on the complexity scale?

They will try to be as simple as Renaissance, but I don't know how well I'll do there. I'll have to put in the work to know for sure though.

There are plenty of simple game mechanics so far untouched by Dominion, such as dexterity and social deduction. Clear opportunity to incorporate the mythical nose-stealing competition into the game.

Dominion: Catapult

[crj]

Clear opportunity to incorporate the mythical nose-stealing competition into the game.

There should be Nose and False Nose Artifacts. When you have both, an Attacker can secretly steal one or the other, and you have to figure out whether or not they've really stolen your nose.

The case for an Un* Dominion expansion grows ever stronger. I still want to see Socks printed.

[buckets]

I don't get it. What's the difference between a lowercase x and a multiplication sign?

Times New Roman Italic:

2(4) imo

[crj]

A curious question a friend's just asked, which I don't think I've ever seen addressed:

Is Dominion set on Earth?

[ipofanes]

There's The Earth's Gift, and The Moon's Gift, so there's that.

[LostPhoenix]

There's The Earth's Gift, and The Moon's Gift, so there's that.

"Earth" could be used as another word for soil, and plenty of planets have moons.

[ipofanes]

"Earth" could be used as another word for soil

In that case, most of Dominion is set on Earth, exceptions being e.g. Tunnel going through it and Magpie flying over it.

[GendoIkari]

A curious question a friend's just asked, which I don't think I've ever seen addressed:

Is Dominion set on Earth?

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

[chipperMDW]

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

[GendoIkari]

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

We should totally make a thread to discuss such a question!

[tripwire]

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

This question got me thinking: what is a curse thematically? They seem to imply magic, but lots of non-magical stuff gives them out: Mountebanks, Jesters, Hideouts, etc.

[Donald X.]

A curious question a friend's just asked, which I don't think I've ever seen addressed:

Is Dominion set on Earth?

Dominion is set on Earth, mostly in medieval times, though Empires has ancient Rome and Renaissance is the end of the period.

[Donald X.]

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

They Might Be Giants - Science Is Real

[Donald X.]

One could argue that the existence of the supernatural, such as Werewolf, Witch, etc; dictates that it must be set in some other fantasy world, similar to Middle Earth.

Is magic real?

This question got me thinking: what is a curse thematically? They seem to imply magic, but lots of non-magical stuff gives them out: Mountebanks, Jesters, Hideouts, etc.

Initially the idea was to have a hint of magic with no clear demonstration of it being real magic. I decided to make Alchemy anyway, it had pure fantasy things. Then when the main set was published, Witch was shown with magic despite me specifying otherwise, so so much for that. In the end the game is set in the medieval Europe of many stories, not just fairy tales but you know, Shakespeare plays and so on; it's mostly the real world, but with some magical stuff. People believed in ghost ships and there's a ghost ship, you know. Except Alchemy has some flat-out fantasy stuff, and then Nocturne has tons of it, it's Celtic fairy tales.

With magic not being clearly real, Witch and Mountebank are the same kind of thing. With actual magic, well Curses I guess are both magical and non-magical things that are in your way.

Sir Bailey had the second copy of Dominion, and took the name Castle Builder to heart, changing Curse to Rubble and having those attacks be siege weapons. I considered Rubble but stuck with Curse.

[werothegreat]

Sir Bailey had the second copy of Dominion, and took the name Castle Builder to heart, changing Curse to Rubble and having those attacks be siege weapons. I considered Rubble but stuck with Curse.

Well, Catapult came out eventually

[Marcory]

Sir Bailey had the second copy of Dominion, and took the name Castle Builder to heart, changing Curse to Rubble and having those attacks be siege weapons. I considered Rubble but stuck with Curse.

Well, Catapult came out eventually

And it Rocks.

[ipofanes]

I considered Rubble but stuck with Curse.

That one Dominion clone with a map chose the term "waste".

[Cave-o-sapien]

Do you do any sort of numerical estimate of how often a card or card-shaped-thing will be relevant when designing it?

I was thinking specifically of Capitalism, but I suppose this could also apply to many reaction cards.