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[Seprix]

I'd rather the game not change at all, that way the boardgame is consistent with the online implementation, but maybe I'm the only one who feels this way.

You're certainly not the only one.  In fact Donald has said he'd rather not have the online and paper games diverge, which is why I phrased the question as "online spinoff of Dominion" instead of "online implementation."  For what it's worth I already consider the online game a spinoff.  For one thing online games are almost always two players, but IRL for me is more often four.  That changes the game a ton, and there's other aspects of online play that make it feel like a different game to me.

I wouldn't mind a game of Dominion as a spinoff online, where all the rules were the same with the original cards, but with unique online cards as well. Cards with tons of preparation for example (Philosopher's Stone, anyone?) are perfect for this, as they don't slow the game much at all. I know Donald has considered this, for sure.

Something I do not like much is the 'modding' of existing cards.

[Donald X.]

I'd allow the ban list too but that topic always seems to get contentious around here... since you mentioned Magic, I guess the obvious followup question is how you think the small amount of player control from a personal ban list compares with the curated ban list that WotC uses for Magic? 

It makes no sense to me to compare the two.

In Magic you build a deck from cards you bought; banned cards make it bad to buy packs and so WotC heavily avoids it. But a tournament format may just be "play Affinity" if you aren't willing to ban cards; that also makes people not buy packs. So WotC bans cards.

Dominion meanwhile you buy non-random cards for, play at home, and it's different every game. If some games are "play Mountebank" you still don't know the whole story, and may even be wrong, and the next game won't have Mountebank in it. IRL you can just decide "I don't like Possession and never include it" and I personally would carry that over to the online version. It has zero issues except manipulating ratings and I think that can be made small enough to not matter.

I guess we can connect them by noting that for Magic online, it's common that people looking for a casual game will say something like "no ld no counters no jace." Meaning in this case, they do not wish to play against a land destruction deck, a deck with counterspells, or one particular card, Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The system doesn't just support that as a format, so they specify what they want.

Do you think a curated approach could work for an online spinoff of Dominion?  Like if MF said they want to charge players $X per month, and in return provide periodic updates with new cards and sometimes changes to old ones?  I guess that's maybe closer to Hearthstone than Magic, but anyway would you allow something like that to happen?  Be willing to work on it?

We can look at potential projects from different angles. It might be fun to work on an online-only spin-off for Dominion. OTOH I could just work on some different online game. OTOH I could work on a physical game and then not have all the problems online games come with, the endless huge awful problems. Hmmm that's sounding good.

Or, let's try the money angle. If online Dominion ever makes money, at that point I can consider whether I think a spin-off might.

[sudgy]

Do you make any money off of online Dominion?

[Donald X.]

Do you make any money off of online Dominion?

It makes me money, in the sense that I get paid a % of the take. It doesn't make me money, in the sense that what it has earned me hasn't been especially noticeable. Of course the work they're putting into it is all based on the idea that it will do much better.

[theblankman]

OTOH I could work on a physical game and then not have all the problems online games come with, the endless huge awful problems.

You seem to have had some bad experiences with software companies.  May I ask what huge awful problems you've run into working on online games that don't come up with physical ones?

[jsh357]

I don't know all of Donald's issues but I think one of them had to do with that guy from Dragon ball.

[Witherweaver]

I don't know all of Donald's issues but I think one of them had to do with that guy from Dragon ball.

Yeah, "Dragon Ball Z" is a blatant ripoff of the single-letter branding of "Donald X".

[Donald X.]

OTOH I could work on a physical game and then not have all the problems online games come with, the endless huge awful problems.

You seem to have had some bad experiences with software companies.  May I ask what huge awful problems you've run into working on online games that don't come up with physical ones?

Well I have mostly not gotten into the business so I haven't had the problems. My own experience is limited to online Dominion taking years to get going; I had lunch with some of the funsockets guys in 2011. But I know Richard Garfield has spent years failing to get computer games to happen, pouring energy into projects that don't end up happening.

A board game is unlikely to make any money, but is also low risk. You have to love board games to design or publish them. And if you do you can make whatever new game and see what happens.

A computer game is crazy high risk, millions of dollars. So they tend to want to make Mario Kart 8. The exception is flash games, where it can still be one guy trying to make something cool and different.

[Asper]

A computer game is crazy high risk, millions of dollars. So they tend to want to make Mario Kart 8. The exception is flash games, where it can still be one guy trying to make something cool and different.

It's funny, i felt it was the other way around. For a boardgame, you need physical materials, copies that get shipped, possibly a publisher, and somebody to put them into shelves. You can create a nice little video game with nothing more than a laptop and some free time. Of course not the classic boxed games, or big online things like Goko, but there's so many ways to produce games and earn money with them.

[LastFootnote]

There definitely have been some fantastic games made by one, two, or a handful of people. Cave Story is always the example that comes to mind. If Iconoclasts ever gets finished, it'll be one of my favorite games, period. The playable demo is already pretty far up there on my list.

[A Drowned Kernel]

There definitely have been some fantastic games made by one, two, or a handful of people. Cave Story is always the example that comes to mind. If Iconoclasts ever gets finished, it'll be one of my favorite games, period. The playable demo is already pretty far up there on my list.

I just learned that I can't even read the words "Cave Story" without getting the damned Plantation Theme stuck in my head. Thanks.

[jsh357]

"A laptop and some free time."  Lol

I don't have experience making board games, but I've made plenty of computer games on my own.  Not many good ones, mind, but I know enough to say this much.

Unless we're talking abut flash games or Meet 'n Date stuff, making a board game independently seems simpler than making a video game independently to me; it requires different skills, but making a game, at least a competent one, is a bigger time investment than you are letting on. 

Just a small list of things you don't have to do when making a board game on your own, but do have to do when making a computer game on your own:
- learn an entirely foreign language (whatever programming language/languages)
- learn how to program graphics to work and look nice, which is basically a beast in and of itself (you may have to draw things, I'll concede that point)
- hire a musician or learn to make music and sound effects
- write a narrative (instruction manuals/blurbs take some talent, but aren't nearly as long as a story-driven game)
- spend months or even years finding bugs caused by your scripts not understanding what you wanted them to do
- get Steam or whatever distribution channel to take your game
- promote a game with an absolute sea of competition to the most angry, obnoxious fanbase in the universe

I have only made small projects. (my longest game is about 10 hours long) Multiple ones took me years to finish because of work and school and weren't near the quality of the most popular indie titles.  The folks who finish those are really talented/possibly loaded and major exceptions to the rule in the indie game community; for every Cave Story there are ten thousand games that you will never hear of that failed. 

I am guessing that to make a board game you (warning: I am making assumptions here):
1. Come up with an idea for a game
2. Probably spend a while stewing things over
3. Mock up the game for probably no cost whatsoever, probably in an afternoon or two
4. Test the game with some friends or people at a FLGS.  Maybe pay some of them, who knows
5. Make changes based on testing
6. Continue to make mockups and test/balance the game until you're satisfied (and with no code bugs to fix!)
7. Get the physical products you need and create the game.  Obviously this is probably the most complicated and costly step, but it still takes less time than programming a game from the ground up.  Odds are you actually can't even do this alone unless it's a card game or something real simple since you'll want to make multiple copies and have some printer create those for you
8. Promote the game somehow

I should stress points 3-6 here: one of the worst parts of making computer games is that you can't even know for sure how well something works until you've already done a whole bunch of work on it.  Sometimes a thing that took you ages to finish ends up being terrible and you have to scrap it or make changes.  One of the coolest things about making a tabletop game is that if you have an idea you can just print out some stuff on paper and try it, then throw the paper away if it sucked.  Any computer game developer probably envies that.

Obviously I've never published a board game and I am probably missing a few steps, but it sure seems a lot less complicated to me.  I am not saying making a board game on your own is easy and doesn't have its challenges (of course it does), but there's just so much less you have to learn to do on your own if you're flying solo.  Making a video game requires a silly number of skills, which is one reason mainstream games have so many people working on them.  For the record, I don't mean to sound like I'm whining.  I find the idea of making board games really thrilling; you can put a personal touch on them and see the fruits of your creativity right away, which is fantastic.  If I had any good ideas I'd go for it.

[LastFootnote]

I just learned that I can't even read the words "Cave Story" without getting the damned Plantation Theme stuck in my head. Thanks.

Man, I love that tune.

[Awaclus]

Making minimalistic computer games is certainly a lot easier than making comparable board games. Trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional video game is a lot more difficult than trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional board game.

[jsh357]

Making minimalistic computer games is certainly a lot easier than making comparable board games. Trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional video game is a lot more difficult than trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional board game.

Of course.  But you can make a board game as good as dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.  You can't make a video game as good as super smash bros in the same amount of time

[Awaclus]

Making minimalistic computer games is certainly a lot easier than making comparable board games. Trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional video game is a lot more difficult than trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional board game.

Of course.  But you can make a game as good as dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.  You can't make a game as good as super smash bros in the same amount of time

You could make a video game as good as Dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

But as soon as more than one person is involved, things slow WAY down.

[werothegreat]

Making minimalistic computer games is certainly a lot easier than making comparable board games. Trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional video game is a lot more difficult than trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional board game.

Of course.  But you can make a game as good as dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.  You can't make a game as good as super smash bros in the same amount of time

You could make a video game as good as Dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.

As long as you're fine with the graphics engine equivalent of one of those Little Tikes toddler cars.  Goko at least was a Barbie battery-powered car.

[theblankman]

You could make a video game as good as Dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.

That depends on the value of "you," and I think that's the crux of the discussion.  Donald X can make a board/card game as good as Dominion in a reasonable amount of time.  I think somewhere in this thread he said that Dominion went from idea to first playtest in a matter of days.  Presumably that was on handwritten or inexpensively printed cards without the art, professional layout, etc that's in the manufactured versions of Dominion. 

Likewise, I've seen programmers crank out a playable computer game in a weekend.  Did it look ready for sale?  No way, but there was gameplay that I could test.  Donald's first set of Dominion cards probably didn't have professional artwork or layout either.  I guess the point is that you can make a great board game or a great computer game in comparable time, if you are great at making the kind of thing you are making. 

[Awaclus]

You could make a video game as good as Dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.

That depends on the value of "you

I was mostly referring to DougZ.

[Kirian]

Making minimalistic computer games is certainly a lot easier than making comparable board games. Trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional video game is a lot more difficult than trying to make a game that looks, works and feels somewhat like a typical professional board game.

Of course.  But you can make a game as good as dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.  You can't make a game as good as super smash bros in the same amount of time

You could make a video game as good as Dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.

As long as you're fine with the graphics engine equivalent of one of those Little Tikes toddler cars.  Goko at least was a Barbie battery-powered car.

I see a lot of talk here about graphics, and I want to point out that the Little Tikes car graphics level is visible in games including Minecraft, 10000000, Knights of Pen and Paper, SpaceChem.  Now, only one of those created a billionaire, but they all sold tens of thousands of copies.  Plenty of Flash and Unity games at places like Kongregate have similar graphics and millions of plays.

You might also have heard of a game site called Isotropic; it had a small but dedicated following despite having almost no graphics at all--and in fact included a mode without graphics intentionally.

Gameplay is key; graphics are flash.

Good, balanced gameplay takes a long time to figure out.  Donald and his testing team cogitated for several years* before Dominion was published; Hearthstone spent something like two years in testing, but had a much larger team.

*So that I don't completely derail the thread:  Donald, what was the time span between coming up with the seed of Dominion's idea and actual publication?  (Once I've posted this, I'll look upthread to see if it's already been answered.)

[Donald X.]

*So that I don't completely derail the thread:  Donald, what was the time span between coming up with the seed of Dominion's idea and actual publication?  (Once I've posted this, I'll look upthread to see if it's already been answered.)

I had the idea in the summer of 2005. I jotted down some notes and then forgot about it (it was a solution to a problem in another game, and I did work on that game some). The last weekend in October 2006, I wanted a new game for that Monday's game night. The game I was working on just needed so much work to get to where we could try it, but the pure deckbuilding game idea was easy, I just needed like 10 cards. I picked out rules and cards in a matter of hours, and the rest of the time was spent googling art and cutting and sleeving. I showed the game to Jay at Origins in 2007, and it came out at Essen in 2008.

[Donald X.]

I should stress points 3-6 here: one of the worst parts of making computer games is that you can't even know for sure how well something works until you've already done a whole bunch of work on it.  Sometimes a thing that took you ages to finish ends up being terrible and you have to scrap it or make changes.  One of the coolest things about making a tabletop game is that if you have an idea you can just print out some stuff on paper and try it, then throw the paper away if it sucked.  Any computer game developer probably envies that.

In fact you can try stuff without bothering with printing it out. "This game, let's use Throne Room to represent a card that plays another action from your hand and adds 2 to numbers in its text." Bam, you are trying it.

[Asper]

Of course.  But you can make a board game as good as dominion on your own in a reasonable amount of time.  You can't make a video game as good as super smash bros in the same amount of time

Depends on what is a good game. Must a good game be big and shiny? You kind of imply that, and i don't think it's true.

Also the latest Super Smash Bros is ridiculously big and not comparable to a single edition of Dominion. The genre that SSB is implies subsequent titles include a lot of the content from earlier titles, so it compares more to Adventures+Base Dominion+Promos than Base (which i think you mean when you write "Dominion").

Also i'm curious how the card art would look had Donald done it himself. Maybe Harem would be more popular.

I try to think of a question for Donald to justify posting here, but i feel not bothering him is still less annoying than asking something stupid he probably answered a thousand times...

You mentioned that you wrote 3.8 screenplays before. Is there something that you would be willing, legally capable and comfortable to share with us?

[Seprix]

Here's a question Donald.

http://paul.sparklingrobots.com/blog/donald-x-vaccarino-absurd-culmination-cult-new

Have you seen this? Apparently, making every game unique and different with the same rules with each play through makes you an evil cultist.