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[soulnet]

I was wondering how the current size of the supply piles may influence otherwise too powerful cards. We have City checking for empty piles and Trading Route checking for "started" victory piles. How about:


Investor - $4
Action
Pick a non-Victory supply pile with exactly 10 cards. Gain a card from that pile.
You may trash this card.


I feel it would be too slow at $5, unless there is some really expensive board (maybe prosperity-heavy boards with a couple of 6s/7s).


I think this kind of card really highlights the "depends on the kingdom" thing about Dominion. Also notice incredibly fun (although maybe swingy) interaction with Platinum.

[AJD]

It's really swingy anyway. We both open with it, and whichever one of us has better shuffle luck gets a Possession before turn 5?

[soulnet]

It's really swingy anyway. We both open with it, and whichever one of us has better shuffle luck gets a Possession before turn 5?

Kind of an edge case, but yes. You can also get King's Court or Grand Market during the second reshuffle (or Goons, which is possible but unlikely in real games), that is the whole idea. The fact that you can only get one of each limits the disruptive power, I still wonder how many cards (if any) are game deciders just by getting one copy earlier than usual (and not in the first reshuffle).

Maybe possession is extra swingy if something else accelerates reshuffling, like warehouse, and you get possessed during the first play you get of the card. Still seems really unlikely, though.

In any case, if it is swingy just with possession, that does not seem like a terrible idea.

[AJD]

It's really swingy anyway. We both open with it, and whichever one of us has better shuffle luck gets a Possession before turn 5?

Kind of an edge case, but yes. You can also get King's Court or Grand Market during the second reshuffle (or Goons, which is possible but unlikely in real games), that is the whole idea. The fact that you can only get one of each limits the disruptive power, I still wonder how many cards (if any) are game deciders just by getting one copy earlier than usual (and not in the first reshuffle).

It's not "just Possession" that I was thinking of; that just make a good example.

The fact that you can only get one of each isn't the issue; it's the fact that between us we can only get one of each. You get your turn 3 Grand Market or whatever, and I'm out of luck. Compare this with Baron, which on a lucky shuffle can also get you a turn 3 King's Court—but we both have an equal chance of hitting that $7 hand, and if we both do we can both get the King's Court; my Baron is no less powerful just because you happened to draw it first.

[soulnet]

The fact that you can only get one of each isn't the issue; it's the fact that between us we can only get one of each. You get your turn 3 Grand Market or whatever, and I'm out of luck. Compare this with Baron, which on a lucky shuffle can also get you a turn 3 King's Court—but we both have an equal chance of hitting that $7 hand, and if we both do we can both get the King's Court; my Baron is no less powerful just because you happened to draw it first.

I understand, but more than swingyness, I'm worried of HUGE first player advantage here. I think it does not work. I think "at least 9 (restricting to action cards)" or "exactly 9" may work, but the latter seems it  would be underpowered and random most times.

[SirPeebles]

As far I can remember, the only official cards which care about the number of cards in a pile only care about whether the pile is empty or not.  I'm thinking of City and Band of Misfits.

[Squidd]

You mean I have to wait until half the pile is gone to Invest in Rats??

[AJD]

As far I can remember, the only official cards which care about the number of cards in a pile only care about whether the pile is empty or not.  I'm thinking of City and Band of Misfits.

Trade Route doesn't strictly speaking care about the number of cards in a pile, but it comes close.

[SirPeebles]

Yeah.  I'm often confused when the Trade Route token comes off the Estate pile during an Ambassador game.   There are more Estates in supply than at the start, yet the token comes flying off turn 3.

[Davio]

I think an idea like this works better as a card with dwindling usefulness.

I've seen some submissions to various design contests, but I like cards with a basic form such as this:

Some Card - $X
+1 Card for every 2 cards remaining in the Some Card pile, rounded down.

This means the first buy gets the pile to 9 and nets you 4 cards, as will the 2nd buy.
But buy any more and you'll only get 3 cards from it.

The problem is that both players will often only buy the top 2 cards. It's hard to balance it so that the rest of the pile could potentially be bought. You could make the other cards cheaper or something.

Other Card - $0*
+$1 for every card remaining in the Other Card pile
_______
* This card is worth $1 per card remaining in the Other Card pile

Just a basic idea, don't mind the strategic consequences.

[cluckyb]

Cards with dwindling usefulness are inherently going to be swingy. Also I think it creates more turn order issues. First player is more likely to have more of the cards in the supply during their turn and so they are more useful to them. Furthermore, at the end they become completely unfavorable to buy as they make your current hand worse. The only point is to put a bad card into your hand only to make your opponents hand even worse which doesn't seem very fun.

Maybe something like a green card that gives you points equal to the number of cards left in the stack. But that I feel like almost all of them will get bought because if i'm down 4-2, buying one gives me -1 point and you -4 points so its still a dutchy. But at least that way whoever gets the first one doesn't jump out to a huge lead.

[Davio]

Okay, but isn't the first player advantage offset by the fact that he needs to buy a more expensive card and that the other player can buy the same card at a cheaper price, lessening the effect of the other?

[rinkworks]

It's probably worth pointing out that both City and Trade Route has increasing usefulness, rather than dwindling usefulness.  That way you have to work or wait to unlock their power, rather than race for it, with the latter almost necessarily making the card swingy and luck-based.

What would the reverse be?  Gain a card from a supply pile with just 3 or fewer cards left in it?  That wouldn't be as bad, because the timing of when the race starts is in the hands of the players, so they could jockey for the best position to start the race.  It also means the outcome of the race won't matter quite so drastically as (1) the game will be further progressed, when the impact of individual cards added to your deck isn't as great; and (2) with a bunch of cards gone from the supply pile already, it probably means all players already have -- or at least have had the opportunity to have -- a share of those cards.

I'm not saying that specific idea will work.  It sounds super marginal to me, frankly, since by that point in the game you can probably just buy the card you want, rather than buy something to get it for you, and how often will you even be able to time your purchase correctly anyhow?  I only put forth this variation to illustrate the point about swinginess and races.