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[WanderingWinder]

This is a thread I am starting for people (well, me, but I would love to see other people post things as well) to post nice little tactical strokes, as opposed to strategic ones. Tactics are an enormous part of the game, but not one which is so often focused on. There's going to be theoretical examples, and there's going to be specific bits from games, too.
Anyway, without further ado, let's bust into examples.

Example 1: Theoretical.
The board is terrible and you're playing BM/Oracle (let's assume the rest of the kingdom cards are so bad you never ever want them). You open oracle/silver. Turn 3, your hand is E/E/E/C/O.
A.Your oracle turns up copper/copper. Should you keep them or pitch them?
B.Your oracle turns up silver/copper. Again, keep or pitch?

Example 2: Practical.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/02/game-20121202-220853-3cb74c10.html
Looking at this game from my point of view (I WILL post games where I make mistakes - this may be one! - as well as nice finesses from my opponent (there's one in a video yesterday which let Rabid crush me...); this is what I have at the moment).
You're playing a highway/golem/woodcutter deck, maybe looking for possession at some point. Your opponent is playing somewhat similarly, though he already has a possession, as well as an envoy, but no woodcutters yet. Opponent's turn 16. You're holding Estate/Estate/Copper/Woodcutter/Potion. You 'lead' by 4 duchies and 3 estates, with 2 provinces each (so 4 left). You've lost the highway split 4-3 but have 3 golems and 3 woodcutters to your name (and very little else in terms of economy). Opponent plays highway, highway, then golem into highway/envoy. Envoy draws Potion/Possession/Copper/Copper/Copper. What do you have him discard?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Answers(?)
1. A.  Keep them! This way, you have 3 this hand, which is all you want, and you ensure 6 next hand - again, all you want!
B.pitch them. You know you're drawing copper copper after, and since you want to buy a $3, this is fine. Thus, you want the increased cycling - it pumps the estates into your deck faster, but the oracle, silver and your purchase (I think another silver?) as well. Note that if you wanted to grab a $5 on the board, keeping would guarantee that you could get it on the next turn, so you'd sit.


2.The clearest thing here is that you give him possession. If he plays it, which he can of course, you're pretty happy. Whether copper or potion is less clear. There's a very good chance he has enough to buy province or possession, but the question is which you'd like him to have less, and at this point, I think that is province - I may be wrong though...

[gman314]

General tactics question: How far do you go to activate Menagerie? What kind of things are worth doing to your hand in order to activate a Menagerie?

[dondon151]

1. Average value of your deck is greater than what you will discard from your hand: activate
2. You can buy your desired cards and would like then available immediately on the next reshuffle, and you have < 3 cards available in draw pile: don't activate
3. You can pick up duplicates easily from your discard pile (e.g. Apothecary or terminal draw): activate
4. If you have > 3 Menageries in hand but know you can draw through your deck and trigger a reshuffle: discard down to 2 Menageries and activate

In general I just go for it, especially since case 1 applies when there's light or no trashing. Discarding Menageries from hand is a bit harder to want to do, but sometimes you'll get an unlucky shuffle where all of your Menageries are stuck in the top half of your deck and case 4 also happens to apply.

[Davio]

General tactics question: How far do you go to activate Menagerie? What kind of things are worth doing to your hand in order to activate a Menagerie?

In case it arises: Don't forget to play all your money with Black Market.

[jotheonah]

Unless he has multiple Potions, vetoing his Potion guarantees he can't buy another Possession. Vetoing a Copper, on the other hand, just makes it less likely he can buy a Province. So I actually think the right play might be to kill the Potion.

[Davio]

Unless he has multiple Potions, vetoing his Potion guarantees he can't buy another Possession. Vetoing a Copper, on the other hand, just makes it less likely he can buy a Province. So I actually think the right play might be to kill the Potion.

Even with a veto'd Copper, your opponent only needs $3 in his remaining 4 cards to be able to buy a Province and that's not that hard, but not that easy either.

Given that assumption, I would veto Copper. I mean, as WW is already greening heavily, his opponent's Possession becomes less and less useful and even if he gets one now, it'll have to make another pass through his deck to get to it. This way we can look at Possession as a sort of smugglers for Duchies. Would we rather let our opponent have a Smugglers or a possible Province? I'm going to say Smugglers here.

[flies]

great topic.  it's hard to find ways to talk about general tactical tips, i guess.  Whether to reshuffle is a question that comes up a lot, but there's not really that much to say about it.

[quasi]

This is a broad subject, but definitely an important one.  Probably every card has tactical decisions associated it.  Here are a couple off of the top my head.  I think the concept of tactics is maybe broader than this, but I'm interpreting the question as

What decisions are important with respect to playing the cards that you already have, as opposed to ones that you will get

For me, the classic card is Wishing Well.  This is like a complicated optimal stopping problem.  Someone can probably write a lot about it, but this is the tip of the iceberg for me. 

1.  Optimal Play Order of Wishing Well You have Wishing Well and other cantrip type-cards.  Do you play the wishing wells first, last, in the middle?  You could play them earlyish, and wish for your most common card, i.e. copper.  But if you have other card drawers, as you draw through your deck, your posterior distribution for the remaining cards gets lower in variance, and in the extreme case, you always know your last card.  Or do you play it last, wishing for a particularly important card?  Your expected +card goes down, but that's not the whole story.

2.  In general, play cards that require decisions last  This is a trivial observation, but players mess it up for no reason.

3.  Trigger a reshuffle  The first question is whether a reshuffle is good or bad for you.  If you have a lot of bad cards in hand, it's good.  If you've played through an engine and discarded a lot of bad stuff, it is very very bad.  In more intermediate cases where a shuffle is more moderately bad, consider the tradeoff.  I'd generally play a Witch even if it triggers a reshuffle.

4.Masquerade + Discard If your opponent makes you discard to three cards and there's masquerade, save a bad card.

5.  What to discard  In a game with torturer, militia, etc, never (ok usually don't) discard your engine pieces if you're building an engine.  Always discard your treasure first.

6.  When to play gainers This maybe violates my definition.  If you have a strong engine, you should realize the opportunity to gain cards for play the same turn.  Picking up another torturer via upgrade and playing it that turn can change the course of a game.  So don't just save them until the end after you've played three labs for zero cards.

More if I think of them.  Great topic btw.

[greatexpectations]

managing shuffles is probably the best example of tactics, but there are a few other common ones i think would count as well. quasi beat me to the punch with a few.

1. steward, remake, ambassador, and upgrade all make for interesting turn 3-6 tactical decisions. decisions will be heavily influenced by A. your strategy, specifically where it falls on the BM vs, engine spectrum and B. how quickly you need to hit the $5 or $6 price point.

steward/cccc...gold or trash? i think i'm trashing most games, you bought that steward for a reason. maybe not if tournament is around.
ambassador/ccce...two copper or one estate? i think sending 2 cards over 1 is the correct move 99% of the time turns 3/4, but less so after that.
upgrade-->cccce...upgrade estate or copper? i think you should thin out your copper over estates unless A. doing so prevents you from getting a must have card this turn B. you really need the economy of estate-->silver to hit $5 or $6 again C. there is an action card (pref non terminal) at the $3 price point.

2. passing on buys, especially thoughtless buys like silver (especially in ambassador games) or cantrips when you are playing a draw engine. the net benefit of the card is often not worth the risk.

3. keeping track of your opponents deck in BM games so that you can break PPR. know how many gold they have left and how recently their last shuffle was so that you can estimate their chances of hitting $11/$8/$5 next turn.

4. executing your strategy vs. blocking your opponents. you need to estimate the cost/benefit of whether the loss of tempo for you to gain a card is worth the degree to which it could harm your opponent. cities, fools gold, hunting party, and occasionally villages are good examples for action cards. buying province/colony vs alt vp is another good scenario.

5 timing for starting greening. you need to factor in A. how well your engine is performing B. how many points your opponent has acquired C. the status of supply piles and D. where you are at with regards to the reshuffle/how fast you are cycling your deck.

6. playing your cards in a careful order. it often doesn't matter, but there are some cases where it can be huge. hunting party, menagerie, wishing well, all come to mind. carefully playing cards so your opponent has a tougher envoy or contraband choice. playing goons/militia before bishop, vault, or tournament.

[WanderingWinder]

For me, the classic card is Wishing Well.  This is like a complicated optimal stopping problem.  Someone can probably write a lot about it, but this is the tip of the iceberg for me. 

1.  Optimal Play Order of Wishing Well You have Wishing Well and other cantrip type-cards.  Do you play the wishing wells first, last, in the middle?  You could play them earlyish, and wish for your most common card, i.e. copper.  But if you have other card drawers, as you draw through your deck, your posterior distribution for the remaining cards gets lower in variance, and in the extreme case, you always know your last card.  Or do you play it last, wishing for a particularly important card?  Your expected +card goes down, but that's not the whole story.

Play wishing well last. Well, actually, as close to the reshuffle as possible without triggering one. This actually INCREASES your expected card draw, so long as you keep track of what it is that is left in your deck.

[greatexpectations]

WW, not sure if/how much you have added to the wiki but i think that this is a perfect article candidate. we can detail a variety of different situations (as i attempted to do) and provide detailed examples and case by case discussion like you did in the OP.

[quasi]

Yeah actually when I think about you should probably play it last.  If you're wishing for the same card no matter what, it doesn't affect your expected card draw*.  But you can leverage some gain by choosing your card based on what is most common in your deck.  Even so, should you be optimizing that way, or should you instead be wishing for the one Mountebank you have.

*posterior is a martingale 

[Kuildeous]

This seems counterintuitive to me. Could you explain this a little more?

I had always figured that Estate should be trashed before Copper because if you drew that card, then the Estate would be dead while the Copper would not (barring Estate-centric cards like Baron). And for a TfB card like Upgrade, I would gladly trash the Estate before the Copper. It hadn't even occurred to me that trashing Copper first would be advantageous.

[HiveMindEmulator]

i think you should thin out your copper over estates

This seems counterintuitive to me. Could you explain this a little more?

I had always figured that Estate should be trashed before Copper because if you drew that card, then the Estate would be dead while the Copper would not (barring Estate-centric cards like Baron). And for a TfB card like Upgrade, I would gladly trash the Estate before the Copper. It hadn't even occurred to me that trashing Copper first would be advantageous.

I agree with you. Usually I'd rather have $3 card + Copper in my deck than Estate. But if it's more important to just have less total cards in the deck, then there is a benefit to removing the Copper, since it leaves your deck one card thinner.

[Kuildeous]

Ah yes, that is true. If your goal is to have a thinner deck, then you could indeed Remake/Upgrade Copper (barring Poor House). I'm not sure that I would choose to thin the deck more than gaining a Silver, but that's a different discussion topic. I see the truth in that statement.

[greatexpectations]

This seems counterintuitive to me. Could you explain this a little more?

I had always figured that Estate should be trashed before Copper because if you drew that card, then the Estate would be dead while the Copper would not (barring Estate-centric cards like Baron). And for a TfB card like Upgrade, I would gladly trash the Estate before the Copper. It hadn't even occurred to me that trashing Copper first would be advantageous.

if upgrade is your primary/only source of trashing then it is usually important to play it more often. and i gave counterexamples where i think upgrading the estate is usually better. basically, what it comes down to is weighing the importance of cycling your deck faster versus the added buying power. personally, cycling a deck is more important most of the time, especially early in the game. but what you need to look at is the value added of turning an estate into a silver versus the benefit of cycling. consider an upgrade/- open.

you draw upgrade/ccce and then draw a copper when you play the upgrade. presumably buying a silver either way and then buying a silver next turn too. you reshuffle and you have:
estate--> silver - 13 cards, total spending power of 13.
copper-->nothing - 12 cards, total spending power of 10.

your spending power is quite similar (.92 vs 1 per card) but you drop  a card from your deck too. this enables slightly faster shuffling and also reduces the chances that you lose the upgrade in the reshuffle.

now hey, maybe this is a silly move some time. im sure we could simulate some cases and i very well could be wrong. but what i will challenge is the default tactic of blindly upgrading estates into silver instead of trashing copper first. it might be the correct move sometimes, but there are going to be cases where i don't think it is.

[() | (_) ^/]

The time for Swindling an opponent's Estate into a $2 action or treasure is a LOT sooner than people think.  Not sure if that is strategy or tactics -- but mid-to-late game Swindling is generally poorly played, IMO.

[dondon151]

now hey, maybe this is a silly move some time. im sure we could simulate some cases and i very well could be wrong. but what i will challenge is the default tactic of blindly upgrading estates into silver instead of trashing copper first. it might be the correct move sometimes, but there are going to be cases where i don't think it is.

I get the impression that even an expert player like -Stef- preferentially trashes Estate -> Silver over Copper -> nothing most of the time.

The problem with just trashing Coppers is that your deck only gets marginally faster, and at that point in the game it only means seeing your Upgrade slightly sooner - but trashing only one card from your deck means that you're not really even seeing the Upgrade a turn earlier most of the time.

More importantly, though, your deck takes a huge hit in buying power and loses the ability to pick up $5s and sometimes even $4s that will build your engine. You say that the average spending power is quite similar, and that is undeniably true (although I think you fudged up the Copper -> nothing, since you should have 6 Copper and 2 Silver for $10 in a deck of 12 cards). However, we have to consider discrete hands instead of average buying power, and there is a huge difference between drawing CCCEE and CCCSE on your next shuffle. You may even be able to pick up more Upgrades, compensating for the minor loss in cycling that resulted from trashing Estate -> Silver instead of Copper -> nothing.

[Beyond Awesome]

This seems counterintuitive to me. Could you explain this a little more?

I had always figured that Estate should be trashed before Copper because if you drew that card, then the Estate would be dead while the Copper would not (barring Estate-centric cards like Baron). And for a TfB card like Upgrade, I would gladly trash the Estate before the Copper. It hadn't even occurred to me that trashing Copper first would be advantageous.

if upgrade is your primary/only source of trashing then it is usually important to play it more often. and i gave counterexamples where i think upgrading the estate is usually better. basically, what it comes down to is weighing the importance of cycling your deck faster versus the added buying power. personally, cycling a deck is more important most of the time, especially early in the game. but what you need to look at is the value added of turning an estate into a silver versus the benefit of cycling. consider an upgrade/- open.

you draw upgrade/ccce and then draw a copper when you play the upgrade. presumably buying a silver either way and then buying a silver next turn too. you reshuffle and you have:
estate--> silver - 13 cards, total spending power of 13.
copper-->nothing - 12 cards, total spending power of 11.

your spending power is quite similar (.92 vs 1 per card) but you drop  a card from your deck too. this enables slightly faster shuffling and also reduces the chances that you lose the upgrade in the reshuffle.

now hey, maybe this is a silly move some time. im sure we could simulate some cases and i very well could be wrong. but what i will challenge is the default tactic of blindly upgrading estates into silver instead of trashing copper first. it might be the correct move sometimes, but there are going to be cases where i don't think it is.

This is why I think Junk Dealer is a better card than Upgrade. It also gives you +$1 each time it trashes.

[dondon151]

This is why I think Junk Dealer is a better card than Upgrade. It also gives you +$1 each time it trashes.

Upgrade is superior when there are other $3s on the board, and I'd wager that an opening Upgrade is also better for BM.

[Beyond Awesome]

This is why I think Junk Dealer is a better card than Upgrade. It also gives you +$1 each time it trashes.

Upgrade is superior when there are other $3s on the board, and I'd wager that an opening Upgrade is also better for BM.

Most likely true, unless if you are playing with Shelters, in which case, you really want Junk Dealer over Upgrade.

[-Stef-]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• I almost always wish for the most frequent card in my deck, which is very often a copper.
• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.
• Suppose I play a strong combo deck with lots of conspirators, and halfway my turn my hand is 3 coppers, and a wishing well. I play the well and it gives me a village. I usually now wish for a card that would break the turn, probably still copper. More in general: in strong decks I often wish for the card I don't want to have.
• Clearly, if I have a guaranteed draw either now or later, that breaks all other rules. I could be two cards away from a reshuffle now, or maybe I will be a bit later this turn, or maybe there's an apothecary or cartographer in my deck coming soon.

And just to point out all these rules can be broken:

I remember playing a game IRL where my opponent opened swindler-silver and I opened wishing well-remodel. No desirable $5 cards in the set. On his turn 3 he bought something for $4, and on my turn 3 I had CCCEW. Playing the wishing well got me another copper. I now wished for the remodel in stead of the usual copper or estate. It wasn't actually on top, but I wanted this wishing well to fizzle, because I didn't want my rebuild to miss the reshuffle caused by his swindler on turn 4. At first I wanted to wish for province, but remodel was ok too.


Edit: I got confused with remodel-rebuild indeed. Thanks. Still confused by Dutch card names from time to time.

[Beyond Awesome]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• I almost always wish for the most frequent card in my deck, which is very often a copper.
• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.
• Suppose I play a strong combo deck with lots of conspirators, and halfway my turn my hand is 3 coppers, and a wishing well. I play the well and it gives me a village. I usually now wish for a card that would break the turn, probably still copper. More in general: in strong decks I often wish for the card I don't want to have.
• Clearly, if I have a guaranteed draw either now or later, that breaks all other rules. I could be two cards away from a reshuffle now, or maybe I will be a bit later this turn, or maybe there's an apothecary or cartographer in my deck coming soon.

And just to point out all these rules can be broken:

I remember playing a game IRL where my opponent opened swindler-silver and I opened wishing well-rebuild. No desirable $5 cards in the set. On his turn 3 he bought something for $4, and on my turn 3 I had CCCEW. Playing the wishing well got me another copper. I now wished for the rebuild in stead of the usual copper or estate. It wasn't actually on top, but I wanted this wishing well to fizzle, because I didn't want my rebuild to miss the reshuffle caused by his swindler on turn 4. At first I wanted to wish for province, but rebuild was ok too.

How did you open Wishing Well/Rebuild?

[GendoIkari]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.

I'm confused by this... had you played the wishing well last, you still would have drawn that non-copper... it would have been the card that Wishing Well automatically drew. What advantage was there is playing Wishing Well second-to-last instead of last? The total number of cards drawn, and which cards were drawn, is the same either way (if Wishing Well misses). But playing Wishing Well last (not counting re-shuffle situations) leads to slightly better odds of drawing 2 cards with it.

[LastFootnote]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• I almost always wish for the most frequent card in my deck, which is very often a copper.
• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.
• Suppose I play a strong combo deck with lots of conspirators, and halfway my turn my hand is 3 coppers, and a wishing well. I play the well and it gives me a village. I usually now wish for a card that would break the turn, probably still copper. More in general: in strong decks I often wish for the card I don't want to have.
• Clearly, if I have a guaranteed draw either now or later, that breaks all other rules. I could be two cards away from a reshuffle now, or maybe I will be a bit later this turn, or maybe there's an apothecary or cartographer in my deck coming soon.

And just to point out all these rules can be broken:

I remember playing a game IRL where my opponent opened swindler-silver and I opened wishing well-rebuild. No desirable $5 cards in the set. On his turn 3 he bought something for $4, and on my turn 3 I had CCCEW. Playing the wishing well got me another copper. I now wished for the rebuild in stead of the usual copper or estate. It wasn't actually on top, but I wanted this wishing well to fizzle, because I didn't want my rebuild to miss the reshuffle caused by his swindler on turn 4. At first I wanted to wish for province, but rebuild was ok too.

How did you open Wishing Well/Rebuild?

I'm guessing Stef actually meant Wishing Well/Remake or Wishing Well/Remodel, but I could be wrong.

[dondon151]

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

[Beyond Awesome]

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

That explains everything. He is like the Chuck Norris of Dominion players.

[-Stef-]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.

I'm confused by this... had you played the wishing well last, you still would have drawn that non-copper... it would have been the card that Wishing Well automatically drew. What advantage was there is playing Wishing Well second-to-last instead of last? The total number of cards drawn, and which cards were drawn, is the same either way (if Wishing Well misses). But playing Wishing Well last (not counting re-shuffle situations) leads to slightly better odds of drawing 2 cards with it.

Suppose I have a whole bunch of coppers left in my deck and a single bridge that would really spice up this turn. I have a wishing well and a village in hand.

I could play the wishing will and wish for a copper. Then I play the village. Now I actually get the bridge if it's the first, second or third card.

I could also play the village first, followed by the wishing well. Still can get the bridge if its in the top 3, but now I have to wish for it, significantly reducing the chances of a wishing well hit.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Wishing Well is actually one of my favorite cards, and has a lot of subtle plays hidden in there.
I can't think of any advice that holds in every situation; some general ideas nevertheless:

• Given several cantrips, I almost always play the wishing well next-to-last. That way I can still get the non-copper to use this turn.

I'm confused by this... had you played the wishing well last, you still would have drawn that non-copper... it would have been the card that Wishing Well automatically drew. What advantage was there is playing Wishing Well second-to-last instead of last? The total number of cards drawn, and which cards were drawn, is the same either way (if Wishing Well misses). But playing Wishing Well last (not counting re-shuffle situations) leads to slightly better odds of drawing 2 cards with it.

Suppose I have a whole bunch of coppers left in my deck and a single bridge that would really spice up this turn. I have a wishing well and a village in hand.

I could play the wishing will and wish for a copper. Then I play the village. Now I actually get the bridge if it's the first, second or third card.

I could also play the village first, followed by the wishing well. Still can get the bridge if its in the top 3, but now I have to wish for it, significantly reducing the chances of a wishing well hit.

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

[SirPeebles]

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

-Stef- once managed to get a Curse into my turn 2 hand!

... opening IGG

... in a 4 player game where the two next players opened Noble Brigand.

... OK, I've never played against -Stef-

[Davio]

I too, am a big fan of Wishing Well.

I've been known to occasionally wish for a card that wasn't in my deck. Alas, Iso doesn't provide a textbox where you can jot down "Ace of Spades" or something.

But I don't always wish for the most frequent card, it depends on a lot of things. Suppose that wishing the next card correctly leaves 4 cards on top of your deck, all good ones (and no cantrips/drawers). Now all those cards will miss the reshuffle, so in those cases I sometimes wish for a non-existing card.

I guess I tend to wish for cards that both have a decent hit chance and make the most sense. If you already have $6 and the Curses are 4-5 in your favor, you could wish for a Witch with 10% hit chance or a Coppr with 50% chance of guessing right.

[kn1tt3r]

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.

[Davio]

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.

Well, I've met him and it's surprisingly... not Stef, but close.
Steven or something if I recall correctly. Could be Stef, though.

[-Stef-]

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

Stef can actually open 5/3. How else do you think he got to the top of the Iso leaderboard?

I'm quite sure -Stef-'s real name is Chuck Norris.

Well, I've met him and it's surprisingly... not Stef, but close.
Steven or something if I recall correctly. Could be Stef, though.

It's just Stef. We've met too, and I'm quite certain

[GendoIkari]

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

Did you really mean case #2? If Bridge is 4th or later, then it doesn't matter because you can't get the bridge no matter what order you play the cards in. Either way you end up with 3 Copper (assuming you Wish for Copper).

And it doesn't matter that not all cases are equally likely... he wasn't talking about what the total odds of ending up with the Bridge are; he was just talking about whether you want to play Village or WW first, in each of the possible situations.

Either way, you are still correct with your original reply to me... when Bridge is in the third spot down, then playing Wishing Well first will get it for you while playing Village first won't (assuming you wish for Copper every time).

[RD]

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

Did you really mean case #2? If Bridge is 4th or later, then it doesn't matter because you can't get the bridge no matter what order you play the cards in. Either way you end up with 3 Copper (assuming you Wish for Copper).

But the premise of this puzzle is that you really want your Bridge this turn. So you would not wish for Copper if you played the WW last, you would wish for Bridge. And then in case 2 you would only get 2 Copper.

The point of Stef's strategy is that it still maximizes the odds of getting your Bridge, which is the main priority; but it also maximizes the amount of Copper you can get without compromising your Bridge chances.

[cherdano]

It's a really simple, but I enjoy it every time it comes up:

I am ahead by 2-4 points, two provinces left, opponents plays a Counterband, I have $8 in my hand. Rather than reflexively disallowing provinces, it's usually right to disallow duchies. Whereas with $7 in my hand, it's better to disallow provinces.

Although maybe it's actually not so simple: if my opponents knows I knows this tactic, shouldn't I just bluff and disallow duchies even with $7 in hand?

[HiveMindEmulator]

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

Not sure it's any more of an edge case than the case where your play benefits over the standard play of playing the Wishing Well last and wishing for the most probable card (rather than the most desired card). That is only worse than your strategy in case 3 when number of Coppers in your deck is at least 4. And it's better in case 4 and equal in all other cases. So we're already dealing in edge cases...

To be more clear, there are 3 candidate ways to play this:
1. Village, then Wishing Well, wishing for Copper
2. Wishing Well, wishing for Copper, then Village.
3. Village, then Wishing Well, wishing for Bridge

Method (1) maximizes the expected number of cards drawn.
Method (2) maximizes the probability of finding the Bridge, and then maximizes the expected number of cards drawn among methods that achieve this probability for N>=4.
Method (3) maximizes the probability of find the Bridge, and then maximizes the expected number of cards drawn conditioned on successfully finding the Bridge.

And things become more complicated if your draw pile composition is anything other than 1 Bridge N Coppers. What if there are 2 Bridges? What if there is also an Estate? What if there is also a Highway (or some other useful card)? This whole discussion is already dealing in edge cases.

As a concrete example, if there are 2 Bridges an 3 Coppers in the draw pile, then playing the Village first and then the Wishing Well gets you a wish success probability of 0.7333 (it's 2/3 most of the time, but 100% when the first 2 cards are both Bridge, which occurs 1/10 of the time), but playing the Wishing Well first gets you a success probability of 0.6 (WLOG you always wish for Copper, which is in the second position 6/10 of the time), and both have an equal chance of finding a Bridge.

[GendoIkari]

Although maybe it's actually not so simple: if my opponents knows I knows this tactic, shouldn't I just bluff and disallow duchies even with $7 in hand?

No, because the right move for your opponent there is to buy the Province anyway... if he can't buy Duchies, then he can't choose to follow PPR.

[WanderingWinder]

....

Okay, so we're assuming the draw pile has remaining a bunch of Coppers and 1 good card right? For concreteness, say it's N Coppers and a Bridge, and you have a Village and Wishing Well in hand. Your only goal is the get the Bridge. There are 4 possible locations of the Bridge.
1. The Bridge is first. Here the order you play doesn't matter.
2. The Bridge is 4th or later. Again it doesn't matter.
3. The Bridge is third. If you play the Village first then Wish for the Bridge, you get it. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for a Copper you get the Bridge as well. In both cases you got the same thing.
4. The Bridge is second. If you play Village first, you get the Bridge and 2 Coppers. If you play the Wishing Well first and wish for Copper you get the Bridge and 1 Copper.

So it seems like if the only thing you care about is getting the Bridge, then it doesn't matter. However, if you have a different objective, like maximizing the expected number of cards you draw, playing the Village first should be better.

Case #2 actually does matter, you get 2 coppers where I get 3.
Also, you can't count them all as equals because there are way more bridge=#4+ scenarios then bridge =#2

If not getting the bridge implies that the amount of coppers is irrelevant, and/or Bridge & 2 coppers is worth tons more then bridge+copper, playing the village first is better. But that I dare to call an edge case.

All cases I am about to post assume triggering a reshuffle is irrelevant and you would rather draw cards than not. This isn't always the case of course.
With exactly 1 or 3 cards left in your deck, you definitively want to play village first. With 2, you certainly want to play WW first. With more than that you start having to weigh, how important is the bridge now vs later, and how much does getting another copper now vs later vs not at all do for me? But I daresay your case is more of an edge case than the other, because if getting the bridge now is so incredibly important, you probably need the +buy, and the copper, without a +buy, not so much. The in general the copper is worth more in a hand with bridge than one without it.
To say nothing of the fact that your deck will almost certainly be more complicated than 1 bridge and X copper, where X>2, in which case playing the village first gives more information and is better.

Wait, why am I giving Stef advice?

[WanderingWinder]

The most basic tactical shot is to always be watchful for a chance to end the game with a win; take for instance the end of this game where I throne a baron, DON'T discard an estate though I could have, to gain the last 2 estates and have the 3 buys to buy out the last 3 curses, netting a 2 point victory.

[WanderingWinder]

Some more stuff, from a couple of recent games:
Here I pause my engine and trash a couple of components, going remake happy to secure a 3 pile

And here it was really important to not be on auto-pilot with king's court (I have messed this stuff up SO many times) - Kinging Horse Traders BEFORE the last wharf lets me redraw all the discarded cards.

[brokoli]

Thanks for sharing, love these tricks !

[WanderingWinder]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/21/game-20121221-195149-499d1dfb.html
Navigator.
Here, with the villages, I want to play it BEFORE a cantrip, especially scrying pool, to set up scrying pool plays. If it pops up 1 non-action, I want to make sure that the non-action is the top card before I play the scrying pool, so that I can pitch that with the scrying pool and have the biggest draw possible. I do this right a few times, but screw it up because I'm too much on auto-pilot in my outpost turn after turn 15 (should be worker's village then navigator before the second worker's village).
Just played this, and kicked myself right after, so I knew I needed to put it in here. Well, I was *probably* dead anyway, but this didn't help...

[zahlman]

Yeah actually when I think about you should probably play it last.

Yeah, well, you said it yourself:

2.  In general, play cards that require decisions last  This is a trivial observation, but players mess it up for no reason.

Anyway, the can of worms I'd like to open here is Golem. Say my hand contains Golem and some cantrips; I need to decide whether to play the Golem first (and risk hitting two terminals and not getting to play my cantrips) or the cantrips (and risk drawing actions into hand that are now unavailable to the Golem). Usually this is not too hard of a decision, but... Oh, and yeah, having Scrying Pools in addition to Golems can make this considerably more complicated.

(Although I guess a literal reading of the quoted principle says to play the cantrips first, since Golem requires me to decide an order to play the found actions in? )

[WanderingWinder]

A couple more hypotheticals:

2A: Your hand is Bazaar Courtyard Copper Monument Estate. You play Bazaar to draw an estate, then courtyard into copper copper and bazaar. What should you put back on your deck.

2B: Your hand is Throne Room Scheme Copper Estate Silver, and your opponent Ghost Ships you. What do you put back on your deck?

Answers:

2A.Unless there is some 7-cost you REALLY need RIGHT NOW, you want to put the bazaar back. I suppose there are situations you'd stick the monument back - but only if you don't play the bazaar and buy something costing 4 or less, or nothing at all - really this will almost certainly not come up unless you somehow know you can KC the monument next turn if you put it back, in which case most often you do want the $7 to buy another KC! If you do need a $7, it doesn't matter, except DON'T put the Bazaar back and then do play it.

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

[Piemaster]

Another reason I Upgrade Estates over Copper is that (in the case of that first Upgrade anyway) it will often net me a silver that I would have had to buy eventually anyway, leaving that 3 or 4 buy later on to be spent on an engine piece instead.

[blueblimp]

Don't gain the second-to-last Province if one of your opponents can/is-likely-to win the game by gaining the last Province on his next turn.  I call this my 2nd-to-Last Province Rule, or 2tLPR for short.


=========
In all seriousness, though, the time for Swindling an opponent's Estate into a $2 action or treasure is a LOT sooner than people think.  Not sure if that is strategy or tactics -- but mid-to-late game Swindling is generally poorly played, IMO.

The above is missing an important part of the PPR, which is that you need to be able to pull ahead in points with a cheaper victory card. For example, if you're behind by 8 points, your main hope to win is getting the last two Provinces and on the rest of turns Duchies. If you don't buy the second-last Province, winning will be nearly impossible.

[zahlman]

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

This isn't quite true. Putting back the Scheme and the Copper would be bad, for example. But yeah, you can either keep TR-Scheme and put back and two of the others, draw them back with TR-Scheme on your turn, spend $3, and topdeck TR-Scheme; or you can just put back TR-Scheme, spend $3, and know that your TR-Scheme is already topdecked.

[WanderingWinder]

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

This isn't quite true. Putting back the Scheme and the Copper would be bad, for example. But yeah, you can either keep TR-Scheme and put back and two of the others, draw them back with TR-Scheme on your turn, spend $3, and topdeck TR-Scheme; or you can just put back TR-Scheme, spend $3, and know that your TR-Scheme is already topdecked.

True. I wasn't even thinking about those cases, because it just isn't a thing to split your actions in a case like this. Like there's no reason you'd even think to.


Somebody edge case me. Okay, possession. Somebody give me a non-possession edge case.

[WanderingWinder]

This is one of my favourites:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/30/game-20121230-093143-b5a072aa.html

At the end here, I purposely DON'T play my 6th highway (actually, I think it ended up being that I couldn't, but I was planning on not doing it anyway), so that I can buy enough border villages and still have them be expensive enough to gain other things off them, and pile out with a win.
(If you look at the rest of the game, you'll notice that despite some small early differences, I more or less win on first turn, getting the 6-4 on highways. Though Rabid, because he's Rabid, is able to twist quite well to make me earn this one).

[zahlman]

2B.It doesn't matter. Ok, there are exceptions - opponent's deck attacks (both the trashing kind a la swindler, saboteur) and the filtering kind (fortune teller, Rabble, spy, Jester fits somewhere, too), and if you have something havened coming back to you, or ONE caravan in play from last turn, or if your opponent is going to have you draw with something a la council room.

This isn't quite true. Putting back the Scheme and the Copper would be bad, for example. But yeah, you can either keep TR-Scheme and put back and two of the others, draw them back with TR-Scheme on your turn, spend $3, and topdeck TR-Scheme; or you can just put back TR-Scheme, spend $3, and know that your TR-Scheme is already topdecked.

True. I wasn't even thinking about those cases, because it just isn't a thing to split your actions in a case like this. Like there's no reason you'd even think to.


Somebody edge case me. Okay, possession. Somebody give me a non-possession edge case.

Probably something to do with Swindler.

[Stealth Tomato]

5 timing for starting greening. you need to factor in A. how well your engine is performing B. how many points your opponent has acquired C. the status of supply piles and D. where you are at with regards to the reshuffle/how fast you are cycling your deck.

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

e: welp, I'm responding to a really old post. Guess that's what happens when I don't read threads very often.

[SirPeebles]

5 timing for starting greening. you need to factor in A. how well your engine is performing B. how many points your opponent has acquired C. the status of supply piles and D. where you are at with regards to the reshuffle/how fast you are cycling your deck.

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

e: welp, I'm responding to a really old post. Guess that's what happens when I don't read threads very often.

How does one reach 50?

[Ozle]

5 timing for starting greening. you need to factor in A. how well your engine is performing B. how many points your opponent has acquired C. the status of supply piles and D. where you are at with regards to the reshuffle/how fast you are cycling your deck.

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

e: welp, I'm responding to a really old post. Guess that's what happens when I don't read threads very often.

How does one reach 50?

Shell accounts

[Awaclus]

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

Hey, then why am I not 40 yet?

[() | (_) ^/]

.

[Davio]

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

Hey, then why am I not 40 yet?

Because you get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.




(I'm not lvl 40 either)

And by playing a bunch, that's what I did to get to 40. But I also spent a lot of time around these parts of the Dominion forest.

[Stealth Tomato]

5 timing for starting greening. you need to factor in A. how well your engine is performing B. how many points your opponent has acquired C. the status of supply piles and D. where you are at with regards to the reshuffle/how fast you are cycling your deck.

I feel like understanding the late game has traditionally been the hallmark of graduating Iso levels:
You get to 20 by understanding Dominion has a distinct late game with its own strategy.
You get to 30 by understanding precisely when the late game starts.
You get to 40 by understanding that the game has a continuous, dynamic flow, and there's no such thing as a distinct late game.

e: welp, I'm responding to a really old post. Guess that's what happens when I don't read threads very often.

How does one reach 50?

If I knew, I'd have done it.

[WanderingWinder]

Here's another one: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/07/game-20130107-145123-7dd4fbd7.html
In this game, border village into duchy/duke is generally better than just straight buying it, because we have a handful of terminals each. But there are two exceptions. One is obvious, when hoard is in play. The other? When I buy the last duchy, I could have BVed into it, but don't, because then he has a chance to smuggle the BV, gaining a duke, which I don't want to allow. When he gets the last duke, and this is not *as* important, but still something to think of, he gets the BV, and I am able to smuggle into getting an extra estate out of it, hastening game end (as well as giving me a useful card...)

[Drab Emordnilap]

How does one reach 50?

No man can gain 50 levels!