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[WanderingWinder]

Adventurer helped me to win today....
Gold had been embargoed.
But seriously, it can help you in a deck with no other terminals that you'd want, once you get to high enough average money (>1.5). Now, this is pretty rare, but it's not never...

[chwhite]

I'm one of Adventurer's biggest critics, but even it has a definite niche: setups with a) very heavy trashing and b) limited chaining and +Coin actions, so that you have to go Gold to go green.  Thin BM-esque decks that run on the razor's edge of clogging can benefit greatly from Adventurer.

This is probably the best example I can find of using Adventurer: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110811-125536-2918fff9.html . Apprentices and Moneylender for trashing; end the game with only $8 in deck but still able to buy Provinces six out of the last seven turns (the one missing turn was when I picked up Adventurer).

[jonts26]

Adventurer shines in chapel decks. Get one instead of a third gold and you are good to go.

[tlloyd]

Bureaucrat and Explorer are cards that would work when you're already drawing your entire deck and you just need extra buying power to add more to the +buys.

For instance...

     tlloyd plays a University.
      ... getting +2 actions.
      ... gaining an Explorer.
      tlloyd plays a University.
      ... getting +2 actions.
      ... gaining an Explorer.
      tlloyd plays a University.
      ... getting +2 actions.
      ... gaining an Explorer.
      tlloyd plays a Ghost Ship.
      ... (tlloyd reshuffles.)
      ... drawing 2 cards.
      ... nlloyd puts 10 cards back on the deck.
      ... lovin2 puts 10 cards back on the deck.
      tlloyd plays a Ghost Ship.
      ... drawing 1 card.
      ... nlloyd only has 3 cards.
      ... lovin2 only has 3 cards.
      tlloyd plays an Explorer.
      ... revealing a Province and gaining a Gold in hand.
      tlloyd plays an Explorer.
      ... revealing a Province and gaining a Gold in hand.
      tlloyd plays an Explorer.
      ... revealing a Province and gaining a Gold in hand.
      tlloyd plays an Explorer.
      ... revealing a Province and gaining a Gold in hand.

[ftl]

      ... nlloyd puts 10 cards back on the deck.
      ... lovin2 puts 10 cards back on the deck.

Did that turn start with crazy KC->KC->Council room shenanigans or something? I've yet to ever experience having 13 cards in hand during my opponent's turn...

[tlloyd]

      ... nlloyd puts 10 cards back on the deck.
      ... lovin2 puts 10 cards back on the deck.

Did that turn start with crazy KC->KC->Council room shenanigans or something? I've yet to ever experience having 13 cards in hand during my opponent's turn...

I was going to post the whole turn, but it was just too long. It involved several Throne-Roomed Council Rooms. Here's the log:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110609-223729-7473ff04.html

[Fangz]

Who says Harvest isn't awesome? Here's a game I just played.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201109/14/game-20110914-145205-e89b38e8.html

Attention is drawn to turn 14...

[Hamlet]

Throne Room - Harvest is just beastly, and every time I've seen a Harvest played in my group of friends a Province has been purchased. Kings Court - Harvest is even more so.
Adventurer (by the point you can buy it and with a well-trimmed deck) will guarantee at least an extra 4 if not an extra 5. That is awesome! I think there is a lot of hate for these two cards because of the random factor; however, imagine the possible strategies usable with Stash and these two.
The most forgettable card for me still has to be Feast, but maybe I'm picky.

[ChaosRed]

Adventurer shines in chapel decks. Get one instead of a third gold and you are good to go.

Yeah, I'm just a noob, but I'll echo this. In a dense deck, Adventurer isn't a bad buy on one those turns where you don't reach 8, the first Duchy hasn't been touched yet and you've already picked up a couple of gold.

[Davio]

Was this a good setup for Adventurer?

cards in supply: Adventurer, City, Colony, Explorer, Hoard, Outpost, Platinum, Remake, Royal Seal, Talisman, Treasure Map, and Venture

I started 5/2 and basically went Venture with 1 Adventurer and 1 Remake.
My opponent tried the Talisman/Treasure Map trick but I disregarded it due to it being a Colony game.

Our ending decks:

Code: [Select]

#1 Davio: 95 points (6 Colonies, 5 Provinces, a Duchy, and 2 Estates); 26 turns
       opening: Venture / nothing
       [34 cards] 7 Ventures, 1 Adventurer, 1 Remake, 6 Coppers, 2 Silvers, 1 Gold, 2 Platinums, 2 Estates, 1 Duchy, 5 Provinces, 6 Colonies

#2 mrRLN: 42 points (2 Colonies, 4 Duchies, a Province, and 4 Estates); 26 turns
       opening: Talisman / Silver
       [39 cards] 2 Cities, 2 Remakes, 2 Treasure Maps, 1 Hoard, 1 Talisman, 1 Venture, 5 Coppers, 2 Silvers, 12 Golds, 4 Estates, 4 Duchies, 1 Province, 2 Colonies
In hindsight I doubt the Remake was really necessary. I used it once the entire game, trashing a Copper and an Estate (could've trashed 2 Estates but I thought trashing the Copper was better with Venture).

I ended up with just 2 Platinums, because fate decided that a lot of my turns were either $11+ or $8-.
I hit $5 pretty often which led to my 7 Ventures and I even bought them instead of Gold with $6 and $7, but I did buy 1 Gold at some point.

[Jimmmmm]

I used to dislike both Harvest and Tribute. Harvest seems like it could easily skip your best cards and Tribute seems too random and leads to a bit of AP (should I play Tribute as my last action hoping to get more actions from it?). And it sucks as the only "Village", because in such games your oppenent's not likely to have a heap of Action cards.

Anyway. I played a game in which I had a 5/2 opening. The only 5s available were Harvest and Market, and I thought, "Market's not that good, what the heck, I'll get a Harvest."

What I discovered was, Harvest is actually a pretty good opening buy (if there's a reasonable $2 for your Harvest to target), which is counter-intuitive since you have a bunch of the same cards, which Harvest doesn't like. Although, CouncilRoom seems to disagree with me entirely, so maybe I'm wrong in many cases.

Anyway, the idea is, because of the massive cycling, you're likely to play it a lot, and it's rarely going to be give you less than $2 and will often give you $3.

In the above game I played it 8 (+1) times:
Turn 3: $3
Turn 4: $3
Turn 6: $4
Turn 8: $2
Turn 9: $3
Turn 12: $3
Turn 16: $3, $2 (Throne Roomed)
Turn 21: $2

So it was worth, on average, nearly a Gold. Sure, I got a bit lucky(especially buying Golds on turns 3 and 4), and I had Steward (my only other terminal) to get rid of my Coppers and Estates, but I managed to pull in 7 Provinces in 22 turns.

Anyway, it probably pales in comparison to many other $5 cards, but I think it can certainly be a game-winner.

[Elyv]

I used to dislike both Harvest and Tribute. Harvest seems like it could easily skip your best cards

asdf

Without any information on where in your deck your best cards are, it's as likely to get you closer to them as it is to mill them.

I like harvest; it's not amazing but I think it's slightly underrated.

[Jimmmmm]

I used to dislike both Harvest and Tribute. Harvest seems like it could easily skip your best cards

Without any information on where in your deck your best cards are, it's as likely to get you closer to them as it is to mill them.

True. I guess, after further thought, I just found it boring. I didn't really consider the cycling benefit, and would prefer action cards to give more than just $. My point was, I didn't like it, but having used it a couple of times now, it's growing on me. Still not convinced on Tribute though.

[Elyv]

I used to dislike both Harvest and Tribute. Harvest seems like it could easily skip your best cards

Without any information on where in your deck your best cards are, it's as likely to get you closer to them as it is to mill them.

True. I guess, after further thought, I just found it boring. I didn't really consider the cycling benefit, and would prefer action cards to give more than just $. My point was, I didn't like it, but having used it a couple of times now, it's growing on me. Still not convinced on Tribute though.

I don't care for tribute either, it's usually too random for my taste. I was largely responding to the "what if I mill good cards" argument; I've seen it too many times in M:tG, and it's a bit of pet peeve of mine.

[Jimmmmm]

Yep that's fair enough. For the record, I wasn't giving the argument, I was saying what I used to think about it, which was probably what I thought when I first read the card, and then didn't think too much about it after.

Regardless, we're in agreement that Harvest is somewhat underrated, although of course plenty of 5s are better.

[DStu]

Without any information on where in your deck your best cards are, it's as likely to get you closer to them as it is to mill them.

I think you anyway don't end up at +-0, the shuffling somehow breaks the symmetry again. At least given some information. If you have say 15 cards in the deck without carddraw for simplicity, 5 (including Harvest) in hand 10 in draw. You have 13 unimportant cards, 1 Harvest, 1 important card (say Mountebank).
Without playing Harvest, the Mountebank is on average 1.5 hands away.
With playing Harvest, the distance to the next Mountebank is:
1: for 5 out of 10 positions
2: for 1 out of 10 position + (4 out of 10 position) * (4 out of 15' positions). [It could be the last card in the draw, or it could have been discarded by Harvest and than be in the remaining 4 cards of the first hand after the reshuffle]
3: (4 out of 10 positions) * (5 out of 15 positions)
4: (4 out of 10 positions) * (5 out of 15 positions)
5: (4 out of 10 positions) * (1 out of 15 positions) [discarded and than being the last card in the next shuffle]

So the average distance to the Mountebank is now
1*5/10+2*(1/10+4*4/10/15)+3* ... =1.88.

The point is somehow (I believe) that the game is sliced into sequences between the reshuffle, and you already know something about the current sequence (namely that the Mountebank has not been in this slice until now.  And the larger your discard gets, the more drastical the effect should be. So while I think we get the opposite effect (earlier Mountebank) if the Mountebank is already in the discard, when the Harvest is on your hand and you have not seen the Mountebank, playing the Harvest on average delays the Mountebank.  Which is why I'm often unconfortable with it.

Another point (also related with shuffling is): On average, Harvest should help (ignoring collision, which is another problem) when it's placed "behind" the Mountebank in your draw pile. You might think that is symmetric, so the cases where it helps should cancle out. But I don't think it is true, as some cards may miss the shuffle (and if so and how many might depend on you playing the Harvest). When the Harvest misses the shuffle, you would call it behing "behind" the Mountebank, but when you look closer, it's not behind it, it just "did not exist" the last shuffle and is "in front of" the Mountebank this shuffle. And this is NOT symmetric, when the Mountebank misses the shuffle, it is not "in front of" the Harvest in the sense that it is save from getting discarded, because the Harvest can discard the Mountebank, getting it to the next shuffle at a random position, so that it may even miss the NEXT shuffle also.

So I have not analyzed this in complete detail, but I'm pretty sure the situation is not completely symmetric, so that on average I think the Harvest delays the playing of some single important cards, even when averaged over all possible positions.