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[kipkoan]

I was just reading "Interview with Chapel Division champion: olneyce", which has this final question & answer:

Finally, some one-sentence strategy advice you’d give to someone new to the game?

When planning your strategy: cursers > money > good trashing > +card > +buy > bad trashing > +action. Obviously, things get more complex than this, and it often depends, but when you’re starting out you should plan things with this equation in mind.

I was wondering what others thought about that.  I'm still pretty new to the game (been playing for a couple of months), and I think I was slowly working toward a similar hierarchy of cards.  I would have ranked +action higher than +buy, and I think my gameplay has suffered the most when I didn't rank money high enough.  As far as the "good trashing" vs "bad trashing", I'm assuming Chapel is the best trasher.  What other ones would be "good" vs "bad"?  Rats would probably be a "bad trasher", since it's primary benefit would be to get other rats (presumably to trash them for some benefit)?

[GendoIkari]

Note that it's talking about "trashing", not "trashers." So using Chapel to trash just 1 card is bad trashing, even though Chapel is a good trasher. In general, I would say bad trashing refers to planning to use cards like Develop, Transmute, Apprentice, or Remodel to clear out cards. The problem with those is that they can only trash 1 card at a time, and decrease your handsize and take your action (except Apprentice). So Apprentice is a great card, but using it to trash your starting Coppers is very slow. Masquerade and Jack of All Trades also only can trash 1 card at a time, but they leave you with buying power for the turn.

[jsh357]

I think only olneyce can explain exactly what he meant, but I'll take a stab at your comments.

Yeah, it's pretty common to overestimate Villages and not get enough money no matter how good you get.  Just remember you need to buy Provinces in the end, and a fancy engine is only functioning to a situation where you can do that (or buy out piles and end on a low score, whatever) so you do need some way to gain or buy cards.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what olneyce means specifically by good vs bad trashing, but I would guess he means 'good' trashing cards like Chapel/Steward/Apprentice vs 'bad' ones like Lookout/Transmute.  While I am not going to be one to question a better player's advice, I probably wouldn't use those terms.  I'd prefer cursers > money > trashing that fits your engine plan.

Chapel is only the best trasher if it's the best trasher in the particular Kingdom.  Sometimes Ambassador or Steward fit the available cards better.  There are games where you do not want a terminal trasher like it, though they may be few and far between. 

I think it is best not to even think of Rats as a trasher.  You aren't eliminating a card from your deck, you're just gaining a Rats (that is, unless Rats are out, which will happen too late to use Rats as a true trasher).  Rats is more like a balloon you want to pop with your Salvager instead of popping Copper it ate. 

[Drab Emordnilap]

I feel like "good trashing" means more of a "Is there an engine/strategy worth trashing slim for". Chapel on a Big Money Board would be "bad trashing", for example.

[kipkoan]

Thanks for the replies!  I have some more questions about this:

When planning your strategy: cursers > money > good trashing > +card > +buy > bad trashing > +action. Obviously, things get more complex than this, and it often depends, but when you’re starting out you should plan things with this equation in mind.

Where would you rank the other "clutter" cards (like Cultist)?  I'm guessing right below the cursors?  Then there are also the discarders (Militia, Ghost Ship, Rabble).  I'd put those below the clutters, I think.

In the same interview, olneyce said that Saboteur is one of his top-5 most hated cards.  I'm guessing that's because it's one of the "cards that warp the game and overwhelm other strategic decisions".  I've found it to be really powerful, and hard to play against without getting one yourself.  One game I played I was making horrible decisions and getting brutally beaten.  My opponent had already gotten 3 Provinces, and I didn't have any.  I bought a Saboteur, and got lucky by King's Courting it a few times, reaping havoc on his deck, while also trashing his Provinces.  That became my sole strategy, and once I had him crippled, I was able to buy some Victories and end the game.  Seemed way too powerful that time, for sure.

Also to follow-up about the "bad trashing"... if oneyce was talking about using a trasher in a bad way, why is that still better than +action?  I'd think that a +action that lets you use more of your other actions would be better than buying a trasher but not really using it?   

[jsh357]

Where would you rank the other "clutter" cards (like Cultist)?  I'm guessing right below the cursors?  Then there are also the discarders (Militia, Ghost Ship, Rabble).  I'd put those below the clutters, I think.

Ambassador probably goes above Cursing in engine games.  I don't think anybody can tell you exactly how good Ruins are at the moment, but I would say it depends on whether or not the VP difference with Cursing matters.  If it does, then Cursing's priority is huge, if it doesn't, then regular junking fulfills the same purpose.

In the same interview, olneyce said that Saboteur is one of his top-5 most hated cards.  I'm guessing that's because it's one of the "cards that warp the game and overwhelm other strategic decisions".  I've found it to be really powerful, and hard to play against without getting one yourself.  One game I played I was making horrible decisions and getting brutally beaten.  My opponent had already gotten 3 Provinces, and I didn't have any.  I bought a Saboteur, and got lucky by King's Courting it a few times, reaping havoc on his deck, while also trashing his Provinces.  That became my sole strategy, and once I had him crippled, I was able to buy some Victories and end the game.  Seemed way too powerful that time, for sure.

Well, KC/Saboteur is one of the few cases where it's very effective.  In most games, Sab doesn't do much besides hit Silver after it stops mattering. 

This post by -Stef- covers Saboteur better than I ever could:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5465.msg135880#msg135880

Also to follow-up about the "bad trashing"... if oneyce was talking about using a trasher in a bad way, why is that still better than +action?  I'd think that a +action that lets you use more of your other actions would be better than buying a trasher but not really using it?   

Removing a card that is of no help to you early in the game is better than getting an extra Action this turn.  If you remove an Estate from your deck, even with a 'bad trasher,' you aren't drawing it for ~15-20 more turns.  In the long run, that's a better deal.  Plus, you will often play Villages and not actually have enough action cards to get the full benefit of them.

[dondon151]

I don't find that particular bit of olneyce's advice to be very helpful; in fact, I think it's very misleading for newer players and encourages them to identify rigid patterns instead of entire strategies.

[aaron0013]

Kings Court makes just about any card a power card....well, a lot of them anyway.

I do like how he ranked actions last.  You pretty much have to have a +buy to have a worthwhile engine, and trashing is usually necessary for a good engine.

[DsnowMan]

I think olneyce put +Action at the bottom of the list for a couple reasons:
a) n00bs overvalue +action (even after maturing past village idiot)
b) you rarely want to open or acquire them in the first couple rounds, whereas a weak trasher you might. maybe....
but I don't like that piece of advice either

However, you must remember that the most versatile engines benefit from all 4: +cards, +buy, trashing and +actions. You don't need them all, but the less that are present, the worse your engine will do.

Instead of a linear relationship, I have taught developing players to look at the game this way:
1) Are there are power cards (particularly cursers / ruinsers)?
2) Are the engine components there? +cards, +buy, trashing and +actions? Are they any good together?
3) Are there any gimmicks hiding on the board?

Taking all these points together, you can now develop your strategy for the game

[ednever]

The advise is not helpful in getting you to level 40 (or 30 for that matter)

However, I remember reading it last March when I first started playing the game and it was super helpful in getting me to level 20.

Just the idea that cursors are so important. Something that is not immediately obvious to a new player believe it or not. I still sometimes lose games by under valuing them...

I would go further and say:

Curser > other attacker > money > +cards > trashing > buy > actions

Ed

[Drab Emordnilap]

I would go further and say:

Curser > other attacker > money > +cards > trashing > buy > actions

Ed

I don't think you can generalize Attacks that much; there's a huge variation in strength between Ambassador and Fortune Teller, in terms of how good they are at attacking your opponents. It's a rare board that the presence of Fortune Teller will noticeably alter my strategy.

[ednever]

I would go further and say:

Curser > other attacker > money > +cards > trashing > buy > actions

Ed

I don't think you can generalize Attacks that much; there's a huge variation in strength between Ambassador and Fortune Teller, in terms of how good they are at attacking your opponents. It's a rare board that the presence of Fortune Teller will noticeably alter my strategy.

There is a definite ranking of attacks, and Fortune Teller is near the bottom, but I've found even weak attacks are often the right choice if there are all that's available.

Definitely a generalization, but I'll bet you could get to level 20 following that general rule.

Ed

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't think that "always buy attacks" is a good rule of thumb, but I do think that it's important to be aware of all the attacks when you plan your strategy. One easy pitfall to fall into when you're new to the game is to only think about your own deck and your own turns and ignore the effects of interaction. At the start of the game, it can be useful to think, for each attack card, "what will I do if he buys this attack?". If you can't think of something good, maybe you should go for that attack in your strategy.

[DG]

When planning your strategy: cursers > money > good trashing > +card > +buy > bad trashing > +action. Obviously, things get more complex than this, and it often depends, but when you’re starting out you should plan things with this equation in mind.

I suppose that if you're asked in one sentence "how do you play dominion?" then this is the sort of answer you might give, but it isn't particularly good tuition for anyone learning the game. Cards should be considered within the kingdom rather than on their own.  As an example, workshop+gardens will probably beat a couple of opponents who play witch+chapel against you. The one sentence guide tells you nothing about that whatsover.

[olneyce]

When planning your strategy: cursers > money > good trashing > +card > +buy > bad trashing > +action. Obviously, things get more complex than this, and it often depends, but when you’re starting out you should plan things with this equation in mind.

I suppose that if you're asked in one sentence "how do you play dominion?" then this is the sort of answer you might give, but it isn't particularly good tuition for anyone learning the game. Cards should be considered within the kingdom rather than on their own.  As an example, workshop+gardens will probably beat a couple of opponents who play witch+chapel against you. The one sentence guide tells you nothing about that whatsover.

So I maybe should have said 'get better at the game and it all pretty much depends on the board.'  But I'm not sure that would really be very interesting.

Looking back at some of the things I said in that interview, I feel like I understand the game much MUCH better now.  So I would probably restructure the advice a bit.

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.  And I think it's perfectly reasonable to encourage newbies to be very skeptical about +actions when scanning the board.  But it's of course correct that +actions are not the WORST thing.  For instance, bad trashing is worse

[() | (_) ^/]

When planning your strategy: cursers > money > good trashing > +card > +buy > bad trashing > +action. Obviously, things get more complex than this, and it often depends, but when you’re starting out you should plan things with this equation in mind.

I suppose that if you're asked in one sentence "how do you play dominion?" then this is the sort of answer you might give, but it isn't particularly good tuition for anyone learning the game. Cards should be considered within the kingdom rather than on their own.  As an example, workshop+gardens will probably beat a couple of opponents who play witch+chapel against you. The one sentence guide tells you nothing about that whatsover.

So I maybe should have said 'get better at the game and it all pretty much depends on the board.'  But I'm not sure that would really be very interesting.

Looking back at some of the things I said in that interview, I feel like I understand the game much MUCH better now.  So I would probably restructure the advice a bit.

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.  And I think it's perfectly reasonable to encourage newbies to be very skeptical about +actions when scanning the board.  But it's of course correct that +actions are not the WORST thing.  For instance, bad trashing is worse

But I think that is the only answer this forum would actually except.  [Disclaimer: it MIGHT not be the only answer.  It depends. on the board]

[kipkoan]

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.

I'm definitely thankful for your advice... I realize that it's just a simplified rule of thumb, but it made me realize that I need to not forget about money!  There have even been games lately where I've opened with double Silvers!   

One question for you:  what did you mean by "good trashing" vs "bad trashing"?  Is Mine considered bad trashing?

[eHalcyon]

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.

I'm definitely thankful for your advice... I realize that it's just a simplified rule of thumb, but it made me realize that I need to not forget about money!  There have even been games lately where I've opened with double Silvers!   

One question for you:  what did you mean by "good trashing" vs "bad trashing"?  Is Mine considered bad trashing?

As a trasher, Mine is not good.  It is terminal, only trashes one card at a time, and only trashes treasure.  The real purpose of Mine is for increasing money density without hurting your current hand.  Mine is still not that great in most situations.  Platinum makes it better, because the jump from Gold to Platinum is big.



On a related note, it's interesting that olneyce put +actions last on his list.  It seems to me that +Buy is least valued when pricing cards -- consider Knights.  The one with +2 Buys is the only one that costs $4.

[HiveMindEmulator]

On a related note, it's interesting that olneyce put +actions last on his list.  It seems to me that +Buy is least valued when pricing cards -- consider Knights.  The one with +2 Buys is the only one that costs $4.

Higher price != better. For example: Chapel.

[eHalcyon]

On a related note, it's interesting that olneyce put +actions last on his list.  It seems to me that +Buy is least valued when pricing cards -- consider Knights.  The one with +2 Buys is the only one that costs $4.

Higher price != better. For example: Chapel.

In general, sure.  But what about in the specific case of the Knights?

[olneyce]

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.

I'm definitely thankful for your advice... I realize that it's just a simplified rule of thumb, but it made me realize that I need to not forget about money!  There have even been games lately where I've opened with double Silvers!   

One question for you:  what did you mean by "good trashing" vs "bad trashing"?  Is Mine considered bad trashing?

Mine, Island, Remodel.  Stuff like that.  Cards that really do serve a useful purpose, but will tend to be overrated if you become obsessed with lean/mean decks after playing a couple Chapel games and don't realize how important it is to trash a LOT and quickly.  So good trashing means Chapel, Steward, Remake, Trading Post if you have a 5/2.

I didn't really mean stuff like Transmute or Develop.  The best Transmute advice I could give to new players is "never buy a Transmute."

[dondon151]

In general, sure.  But what about in the specific case of the Knights?

When you build an engine, though, you are pretty much dead without gainers and +buy. In my mind the presence of gain/buy in a kingdom is the most important (or maybe second next to cursing) factor in engine feasibility.

[Dsell]

In general, sure.  But what about in the specific case of the Knights?

When you build an engine, though, you are pretty much dead without gainers and +buy. In my mind the presence of gain/buy in a kingdom is the most important (or maybe second next to cursing) factor in engine feasibility.

Does the presence of cursing generally make you want to go for an engine more or less? Early cursing makes getting the engine off the ground a lot more difficult, but some engines are only viable because they're able to deliver a lot of consistent attacking. I'm often conflicted when there's an engine on the board but something like Witch there too...do I try to build the engine or just stick with Witch-BM?

[Beyond Awesome]

But yeah, that wasn't intended to be the 'correct' answer to how people should play the game.  It was a question for advice to give to a newbie.

I'm definitely thankful for your advice... I realize that it's just a simplified rule of thumb, but it made me realize that I need to not forget about money!  There have even been games lately where I've opened with double Silvers!   

One question for you:  what did you mean by "good trashing" vs "bad trashing"?  Is Mine considered bad trashing?

Mine, Island, Remodel.  Stuff like that.  Cards that really do serve a useful purpose, but will tend to be overrated if you become obsessed with lean/mean decks after playing a couple Chapel games and don't realize how important it is to trash a LOT and quickly.  So good trashing means Chapel, Steward, Remake, Trading Post if you have a 5/2.

I didn't really mean stuff like Transmute or Develop.  The best Transmute advice I could give to new players is "never buy a Transmute."

I've actually built a transmute engine a few times and won. It is one of those cards that almost everyone avoids, so if a board is good for it, chances are the opponent still won't go for it. But, yah, I would tell any beginner to never buy Transmute. It usually is a bad card.

[dondon151]

With powerful trashing, consider skipping the cursing entirely, with weaker trashing, curse first then clean up later, and with really weak trashing (like, say, Transmute), consider ignoring the engine altogether.

One of WW's newly uploaded videos against -Stef- has WW going for mostly money while -Stef- cleans up after cursing, and -Stef- wins by a convincing margin.