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Author Topic: Mob + Cult  (Read 3571 times)

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sylas

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Mob + Cult
« on: November 24, 2012, 11:19:51 am »
+1

MOB, $2, Action
+1 Card
+$1

If at any time on your turn, you have more Mob cards in your hand, you can play all of them as part of this action.


CULT, $4, Action-Attack

Name a card costing $3 or less. Each other player who has this card in their hand must trash it or reveal a hand with no such card. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards.


i think Mob should be quite balanced. not sure about Cult though. might be good if used with Throne Room or Bridge. it only trashes one such card from a player's hand. so if Silver was named, a player needs only trash one Silver rather than all of them.
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Qvist

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 11:38:00 am »
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Interesting, both of them. I think Mob could be named like Cultist. "You may play another Mob from your hand".

Sakako

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 12:33:18 pm »
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The point with Mob is that if you ever get another Mob you can just play it for free. It could be worded like

"While this is in play, Mobs don't cost actions to play."

or something like that.
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gman314

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 12:45:48 pm »
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The point with Mob is that if you ever get another Mob you can just play it for free.

That's the way Cultist works too. It says "You may play a Cultist from your hand."
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Archetype

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 12:57:37 pm »
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The point with Mob is that if you ever get another Mob you can just play it for free.
I think he means that you can Mob whenever you want on your turn, without costing an action. Not just after you play a Mob.

That's the way Cultist works too. It says "You may play a Cultist from your hand."
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gman314

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2012, 01:43:26 pm »
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Ah.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2012, 01:53:57 pm »
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Cult looks awful to me.
1) Cult isn't bounded. A player could have his entire hand trashed away and not get a turn. It would also be possible to trash a player's entire deck.
2) Even without that, Cult is dangerous because it both steals good cards and weakens the player's next turn in one swoop, being even more variable in multiplayer games since it doesn't hit each player equally.
3) Because players buy different cards, Cult can be extremely political in multiplayer games.
4) In games using Highway/Bridge, Cult can possibly steal others' Provinces.
5) Cult's effect creates a lot of negative tension and high variance. If it hits, the attacker feels great but the defender feels awful, having lost a possibly good card and the attacker having gained it, but if it misses the defender doesn't necessarily feel any sense of relief, the attacker simply feels bad for having whiffed his powerful action.
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jamespotter

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2012, 02:30:29 pm »
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Mob seems interesting, but IMO it would lead to the game strategy go BM+(as many mobs as possible), which would probably win a lot of the time, especially with some +buy support, so maybe it's OP?

Cult seems unfixable and broken, but it is cool and I wish I could figure out how to fix it...
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sylas

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2012, 04:11:37 pm »
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Cult looks awful to me.
1) Cult isn't bounded. A player could have his entire hand trashed away and not get a turn. It would also be possible to trash a player's entire deck.
2) Even without that, Cult is dangerous because it both steals good cards and weakens the player's next turn in one swoop, being even more variable in multiplayer games since it doesn't hit each player equally.
3) Because players buy different cards, Cult can be extremely political in multiplayer games.
4) In games using Highway/Bridge, Cult can possibly steal others' Provinces.
5) Cult's effect creates a lot of negative tension and high variance. If it hits, the attacker feels great but the defender feels awful, having lost a possibly good card and the attacker having gained it, but if it misses the defender doesn't necessarily feel any sense of relief, the attacker simply feels bad for having whiffed his powerful action.

i'm not sure i understand. the only way you'd trash another player's entire hand is if you could somehow play Cult 5 times and the player has nothing but $3 or less card in hand. to steal Provinces you'd have to play 5 Highways/Bridges first, right?
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ftl

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2012, 05:04:07 pm »
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Remember - one way to get three cults played against you is if one person plays three of them. ANOTHER way to get three cults played against you is if you're playing 4-player and three people just play one cult each.

Played singly, it seems like an extremely high variance version of cutpurse. Cutpurse makes your opponent DISCARD a COPPER. Cult would make your opponent TRASH a SILVER - much stronger, but also very swingy (and of course it could also do the same thing for Villages against an engine deck, and so on.) A

In a four-player game, the second person in a row to play Cult would have already seen the hands of two of the players (if the previous Cult was a miss), and be guaranteed to hit with it. (This CAN be political - if you've seen two players' hands, you get to choose which card to name based on who that will steal from). Compare to Pillage, also, that can discard targeted cards, this can trash targeted cards (but only up to Silver).

Also, compare to rogue - it takes 2 plays of rogue to trash an opponent's card and dig it out of the trash, and most of the time you're grabbing Silver or something like that anyway.

It creates an obvious pin - an engine with cost reduction can destroy the other person's deck, no luck involved. With even one or two highways in play, you can destroy all of their engine components, and then destroy their provinces at your leisure, it's not like they'll be buying any more!

I think this is a card which would cause a lot of frustration at times, but not have the corresponding "hey, this is awesome" moments to make it worth it.

Trashing attacks are hard to do right, Donald X has talked about all the hoops he's jumped through to make stuff like Knights work out. I don't think that Cult is there yet. This one is a discard attack AND a trashing attack AND a gainer for you at the same time...






I do like Mob though. It's a peddler variant - it gives +1 Card, +1 Coin, and sort of a fake +1 action (if all you're doing with that action is playing Mob. ) Or you can think of it as a weaker conspirator variant - if you activate it by playing a village first, all future mobs are nonterminal-like. Maybe phrase it as "If you have a mob in play, this does not take an action to play"? Or "while this is in play, Mobs do not take an action to play"? 

I do not expect that Mob would be OP. It would be very good in games with +Buy AND spare +action... well, the same times that regular Peddler probably gets down to $4 or $2 or even $0 pretty easily! And peddler isn't at all OP when you just use it for its on-play abilities rather than with Trash for benefit.

If playtesting reveals that Mob is indeed OP, you can make it weaker by just raising the cost to $3, but it might be too weak at $3? And hey, I think Mob might be a great candidate for another $1-cost card like Poor House. Upgrade/Remake your coppers into mobs! Anyway, I think there's no way besides playtesting to decide whether Mob is best at $1, $2, or $3, though $2 does seem like a good start.
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sylas

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 06:06:21 pm »
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didn't see it like that but i agree on that analysis. back to the drawing board with that one. was going for a 'name a card' type Attack.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 09:48:06 pm »
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Cult would be brutal in a Feodum game.

The wording in Mob feels messy to me.  In particular the idea that a later Mob may be played at any time during your turn.  In particular, it seems that it can be played while in the midst of resolving another card.
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sylas

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Re: Mob + Cult
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 07:49:50 am »
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going on the above suggestion, i've changed Mob to:

MOB, $2, Action
+1 Card
+$1

If you have a Mob in play, this does not take an action to play.
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