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[TheMunch]

Quite frankly it was this disparity that made me very unenthused about this game and semi lurk for the first day or two.  I  really dont like when people make unverifiable claims.  Someone making this argument should never convince someone else of their alignment.  And if the person stating the claim (in this case Eevee) acknowledges it, then they just said something that has no substance, and shouldn't have said it in the first place.  It is just filling up the thread with worthless.  I understand that no one on f.ds agrees with my stance on claiming, so why would I as scum, looking at town!Eevee think that me calling out Eevee for claiming VT was going to ever lead to him getting lynched?  I just have to say it because I disagree so staunchly.

[Galzria]

The problem is that...

Look, nobody here was giving him town credit for it. Nobody ever does or ever will. I made my statement to Robz about staking every game he and I have ever played together on my being town, WHILE pointing out that the statement didn't exactly mean much.

So Eevee made a claim that he was VT. So what? It isn't some magic "towntell". But to claim it's somehow indicative that he's scum? Please. Give me a break. It's exactly what it is - null. And attacking a null tell is in fact scummy.

In this case it was even more so because part of your claim was that it was "useless filler" - it was his first post, it was RVS. It was obviously so. The very nature of RVS is "pointless filler".

So yeah, your actions were in fact rather scummy. Eevee's response was also scummy. It was OMGUS worthy. But OMGUS is as often town as it is scum. Probably more often. Still, the back and forth was enough to keep me off both wagons at that time.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

-snip-
In this case it was even more so because part of your claim was that it was "useless filler" - it was his first post, it was RVS. It was obviously so. The very nature of RVS is "pointless filler".

I seem to remember a blitz game when I was severely taken to task over something I posted in RVS, about RVS, tying into RVS.  Just sayin'. 

[shraeye]

For the record, had I been town, I would have also voted Eevee over the "firmly claim VT" business.  Like Munch said, there are two types, scum and VT (ICs aren't people, we all know that).  Only one of them is pretending to act like town, and these are the people who I would expect to force it via a hamfisted statement like that."  Yeah yeah, historical evidence and all that.  Still, firmly claiming town is such an empty thing to publicly do, that I'd vote over it as town.

[Insomniac]

-snip-
In this case it was even more so because part of your claim was that it was "useless filler" - it was his first post, it was RVS. It was obviously so. The very nature of RVS is "pointless filler".

I seem to remember a blitz game when I was severely taken to task over something I posted in RVS, about RVS, tying into RVS.  Just sayin'. 

Oh hey! I would never do that unless you were scum...and Eevee I joined your case on munch's scumslip!

[Galzria]

For the record, had I been town, I would have also voted Eevee over the "firmly claim VT" business.  Like Munch said, there are two types, scum and VT (ICs aren't people, we all know that).  Only one of them is pretending to act like town, and these are the people who I would expect to force it via a hamfisted statement like that."  Yeah yeah, historical evidence and all that.  Still, firmly claiming town is such an empty thing to publicly do, that I'd vote over it as town.

And that play is far worse than the actual null claim.

[TheMunch]

The problem is that...

Look, nobody here was giving him town credit for it. Nobody ever does or ever will. I made my statement to Robz about staking every game he and I have ever played together on my being town, WHILE pointing out that the statement didn't exactly mean much.

So Eevee made a claim that he was VT. So what? It isn't some magic "towntell". But to claim it's somehow indicative that he's scum? Please. Give me a break. It's exactly what it is - null. And attacking a null tell is in fact scummy.

In this case it was even more so because part of your claim was that it was "useless filler" - it was his first post, it was RVS. It was obviously so. The very nature of RVS is "pointless filler".

So yeah, your actions were in fact rather scummy. Eevee's response was also scummy. It was OMGUS worthy. But OMGUS is as often town as it is scum. Probably more often. Still, the back and forth was enough to keep me off both wagons at that time.

I saw when you did it as well.  It was equally frustrating.  If you knew that Robz wouldn't believe you and that the statement meant nothing, then why say it at all?  It was worthless fluff then as well, although in that case the excuse of RVS doesn't cut it.  Shraeye said what I said in thread and I still agree with it.

I would say attacking null tells isn't necessarily scummy if the null tell is just bad play.  I will always point out something that I think is bad play and usually a vote will go with it.

PPE: No, galz.  Unverifiable claims are bad.  They shouldn't be done.  Period.  I will vote for people who do it because it makes the remaining town better.  How will players learn if they dont get penalized for making bad plays?

[Cuzz]

The problem is that...

Look, nobody here was giving him town credit for it. Nobody ever does or ever will. I made my statement to Robz about staking every game he and I have ever played together on my being town, WHILE pointing out that the statement didn't exactly mean much.

So Eevee made a claim that he was VT. So what? It isn't some magic "towntell". But to claim it's somehow indicative that he's scum? Please. Give me a break. It's exactly what it is - null. And attacking a null tell is in fact scummy.

In this case it was even more so because part of your claim was that it was "useless filler" - it was his first post, it was RVS. It was obviously so. The very nature of RVS is "pointless filler".

So yeah, your actions were in fact rather scummy. Eevee's response was also scummy. It was OMGUS worthy. But OMGUS is as often town as it is scum. Probably more often. Still, the back and forth was enough to keep me off both wagons at that time.

I saw when you did it as well.  It was equally frustrating.  If you knew that Robz wouldn't believe you and that the statement meant nothing, then why say it at all?  It was worthless fluff then as well, although in that case the excuse of RVS doesn't cut it.  Shraeye said what I said in thread and I still agree with it.

I would say attacking null tells isn't necessarily scummy if the null tell is just bad play.  I will always point out something that I think is bad play and usually a vote will go with it.

PPE: No, galz.  Unverifiable claims are bad.  They shouldn't be done.  Period.  I will vote for people who do it because it makes the remaining town better.  How will players learn if they dont get penalized for making bad plays?

Munch, the issue I have with your attitude about this is that the game is not just about argument and persuasion. This isn't debate club where we get points for having strong cases about everything we say. Sometimes it's just about how people are behaving. If Eevee says "I'm VT" I might just be able to interpret that as being a more town Eevee thing to say than a scum Eevee thing. It doesn't mean I was "convinced" by his "argument" but it's not worthless. Whether I'm right or not it gives me a clue.

[Galzria]

It's not bad play. It's null play. There's a difference. Saying "I'm town" gives me no greater chance of being scum or town. Voting null play is bad town play. It falls under the "lynch mafia, not scum" rule. Just because you've got some personal beef with the issue doesn't magically make it scummy.

[TheMunch]

It's not bad play. It's null play. There's a difference. Saying "I'm town" gives me no greater chance of being scum or town. Voting null play is bad town play. It falls under the "lynch mafia, not scum" rule. Just because you've got some personal beef with the issue doesn't magically make it scummy.

Hypothetical question: If I was to do this in a game, vote for someone that makes an unverifiable claim, if I am known to have this strong opinion whether or I am town or scum, should people think that I am scummy for voting the person that made the unverifiable claim?

[Galzria]

It's not bad play. It's null play. There's a difference. Saying "I'm town" gives me no greater chance of being scum or town. Voting null play is bad town play. It falls under the "lynch mafia, not scum" rule. Just because you've got some personal beef with the issue doesn't magically make it scummy.

Hypothetical question: If I was to do this in a game, vote for someone that makes an unverifiable claim, if I am known to have this strong opinion whether or I am town or scum, should people think that I am scummy for voting the person that made the unverifiable claim?

Find you scummy? Yes. Vote for you over it? Depends. Bad Play = Scummy Play != Mafia Play. If I had other reasons to suspect you of being Mafia, I would probably vote. If it was in a vacuum, I probably wouldn't.

[TheMunch]

It's not bad play. It's null play. There's a difference. Saying "I'm town" gives me no greater chance of being scum or town. Voting null play is bad town play. It falls under the "lynch mafia, not scum" rule. Just because you've got some personal beef with the issue doesn't magically make it scummy.

Hypothetical question: If I was to do this in a game, vote for someone that makes an unverifiable claim, if I am known to have this strong opinion whether or I am town or scum, should people think that I am scummy for voting the person that made the unverifiable claim?

Find you scummy? Yes. Vote for you over it? Depends. Bad Play = Scummy Play != Mafia Play. If I had other reasons to suspect you of being Mafia, I would probably vote. If it was in a vacuum, I probably wouldn't.

So when I find Eevee Scummy for a null tell, it makes me scummy.  Yet you are willing to do exactly the same thing, call me scummy for what is effectively a null tell for me (since I would vote on unverifiable claims as both scum and town).  Sounds hypocritical.

[Galzria]

It's not bad play. It's null play. There's a difference. Saying "I'm town" gives me no greater chance of being scum or town. Voting null play is bad town play. It falls under the "lynch mafia, not scum" rule. Just because you've got some personal beef with the issue doesn't magically make it scummy.

Hypothetical question: If I was to do this in a game, vote for someone that makes an unverifiable claim, if I am known to have this strong opinion whether or I am town or scum, should people think that I am scummy for voting the person that made the unverifiable claim?

Find you scummy? Yes. Vote for you over it? Depends. Bad Play = Scummy Play != Mafia Play. If I had other reasons to suspect you of being Mafia, I would probably vote. If it was in a vacuum, I probably wouldn't.

So when I find Eevee Scummy for a null tell, it makes me scummy.  Yet you are willing to do exactly the same thing, call me scummy for what is effectively a null tell for me (since I would vote on unverifiable claims as both scum and town).  Sounds hypocritical.

Yes, because the claim is completely null. It isn't town, it isn't scum, it isn't good play, it isn't bad play. It's null.

Your vote, while perhaps null to your alignment, is bad play. As such, it's scummy. That doesn't "make you scum", but it is more noteworthy than the complete null claim.

[Eevee]

I don't even.. Wow. What. Sorry Munch, I still don't see it. How can me saying "i'm a vt" be detrimental to town = bad play (in this setup)?

[Voltgloss]

I think Munch's position is that "I'm a VT" is an empty post in this setup - a post devoid of any content - and so it's posting-for-the-sake-of-posting-without-any-actual-content, which is arguably a scumtell (of the "active lurking" variety).

[Galzria]

I think Munch's position is that "I'm a VT" is an empty post in this setup - a post devoid of any content - and so it's posting-for-the-sake-of-posting-without-any-actual-content, which is arguably a scumtell (of the "active lurking" variety).

During RVS as one's first post of the game?

So is Frisk voting Galzria as his first post every game - or Cuzz doing so against Robz in remembrance of M-XII.

Does that make them scum or even remotely increase the likelihood of them being so? No, of course not. Would I be suspicious of somebody actually trying to make a case against Frisk over that vote on me? Or against Cuzz over the vote on Robz? Yes, every time. Does that make said person scum? No, but it's a lot less neutral than the original play was.

[Cuzz]

I think Munch's position is that "I'm a VT" is an empty post in this setup - a post devoid of any content - and so it's posting-for-the-sake-of-posting-without-any-actual-content, which is arguably a scumtell (of the "active lurking" variety).

During RVS as one's first post of the game?

So is Frisk voting Galzria as his first post every game - or Cuzz doing so against Robz in remembrance of M-XII.

Does that make them scum or even remotely increase the likelihood of them being so? No, of course not. Would I be suspicious of somebody actually trying to make a case against Frisk over that vote on me? Or against Cuzz over the vote on Robz? Yes, every time. Does that make said person scum? No, but it's a lot less neutral than the original play was.

Vote: Robz

[Voltgloss]

So when I find Eevee Scummy for a null tell, it makes me scummy.  Yet you are willing to do exactly the same thing, call me scummy for what is effectively a null tell for me (since I would vote on unverifiable claims as both scum and town).  Sounds hypocritical.

Munch, I think the difference between the two behaviors is this:

- Eevee saying "I'm a VT" has no chance of causing any impact on the gamestate.  It's not going to lead to, or away from, any lynch.

- Your voting someone for saying "I'm a VT" does influence the gamestate.  If you are scum, you can "hide behind" your meta ("I would do this whether scum or town") to try to avoid suspicion for a vote on town - a vote that I think, based on your descriptions, you would happily see through to a hammer if no better alternative presented itself.

It's an example of abdicating responsibility for one's vote.  "I would always do this regardless of alignment so I shouldn't be held responsible for it."  But when the "it" in question is a vote - and a serious vote, as opposed to an RVS jokevote - then the behavior changes from a "nulltell" to something that significantly advantages you when you are scum.

[yuma]

exactly