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[Beyond Awesome]

I know everyone hasn't played with DA yet because of Goko. For me, playing online has been the only means of playing DA, and Goko does not even have the entire set released yet! With that said, for those who have had an opportunity to play with Dark Ages, what are your opinions on the cards now.

I will start.

Beggar: Much better than I thought it would be. Not a great card though, but it is actually a decent counter in cursing games. The average game I would say I revealed Beggar about 2.5 times. That's a good amount of silver for a $2. And, gaining three coppers comes in quite handy end game. However, I would say Beggar is average for its cost. It's not super powerful, but isn't weak like Secret Chamber (although that card has its uses).

IronMonger: This card is pretty amazing. A very strong card. I usually buy three or four on most boards. I can only think of a couple or so games where I didn't buy it.

Count: A power $5 for sure. Is it up there with Wharf, IGG, Witch, and the like? It's close. Count is a very versatile card that is quite handy.

Cultist: Another power $5. I am not sure where it ranks among Witch, Mountebank, and itself. Curses hurt your deck more, but man these guys are fast. I love em!

Death Cart: I actually avoid this most games and win when my opponents buy it. I think this is a trap most often. The board has to be right for it. It is a nice counter to Cultist, however.

Wandering Minstrel: In a deck where you want to get to certain actions quick, this card is great. It is also good for setting up engines. Just don't overbuy it. A strong village up there with Worker's Village and Mining Village for $4.

Fortress: Yawn. I know some people love this card, but the board needs to be right. Otherwise, it is a $4 vanilla village. At least Walled Village returns to the top of your deck half the time! Don't get me wrong. You can do some neat tricks with Fortress, but most often, a stronger village will be on the board.

Rats: These are decent. It can be a bit tricky knowing when to buy them or when to best play them. But, they have their uses. On most boards, they can be avoided. Not good. Not terrible, assuming you don't misplay them. Average to slightly below average $4 card.

Band of Misfits: On most boards, this card is so-so. Some boards, the $4 and under cards are amazing and BoM is a great buy. Most often, it is worth purchasing other $5 instead. For the most part, I will say this is an average $5 card and very board dependent.

Procession: You can do neat stuff with this card, but most often TR is better. You have to really map out your strategy when buying this card. For now, I will declare this an average $4 card. But, I will admit, I am a bit scared when it comes to buying this card. I just kind of avoid it almost all the time. In other words, I need more practice using this card to really grasp it.

Catacombs: Really, really amazing card drawer! Amazing in big money decks. I do think though Torturer is slightly better for a $5 draw three card.

Forager: This is the Trade Route I always wanted. +Action makes all the difference. Overall, I will say this is a pretty strong $3 card. It is good at removing curses and in games with additional money like Talisman or whatever, these things can be worth $4 or more. Just be careful because your opponent can take advantage of your hard work.

Junk Dealer: This card is awesome. It is up there in terms of power. In my opinion, this is an Upgrade from Upgrade (pun intended).

Market Square: This is a good source of +Buy because it is not terminal. Also, if good trashing is available, this combos really well for gold. Not an amazing $3 but not bad either. Slightly above average.

Scavenger: This is really good in BM decks. It also has combo uses. Someone needs to run some simulators and see what is better, BM Smithy or BM Scavenger. Running two or three of these in your deck and some gold is a solid strategy. I like this card a lot. But, it can be tricky to use depending on the board.

Pillage: This is a tricky card, but getting two Spoils is a nice pay off. Essentially, it reads for $5, look at your opponents hand, make him discard his best card, and gain two golds that you use only once. So, it is pretty decent, but the trick is knowing when is the best time to buy this card. It is strongest bought mid-game. Late game and you need to be greening and not buying this, plus the spoils have to wait for the next shuffle. If you use it the early game, you risk not having much of an impact on your opponents hand. But, I like this card.

Bandit Camp: This is a strong village. I think some people overrate it. The spoils are one shot and need to hit the reshuffle. On some boards, Bazaar is better, on other boards, this is a better card. I have noticed most people on Goko will avoid Bazaar in favor of this, and that is not always the right play. But, overall, Bandit Camp is a solid village, and I think we will debate for a long, long time which is better: Bazaar or Bandit Camp

Altar: This is a solid $6 card. I almost always buy one of these first over the first gold. It's ability to trash curses and other junk and turn them to $5 cards is an amazing and strong ability. Though, you usually don't need more than 1 or 2 of these in your deck. For me, I think this might rank just behind Goons and KC. Overall, I feel that having one of these is better than having a GM in your deck.

Armory: Umm... Most of the time this isn't great. It is actually usually worse than Workshop. It does have its uses such as topdecking Caravans. But, in a Gardens rush, you would rather have Workshop instead. Ironworks is still the king though when it comes to gainers.

Sage: An excellent $3. This card is really great at making sure you hit your cards. A solid opening is either a good $4 and Sage or Sage Silver and then buying things like Wharf and when you hit three just buy Sage. Pretty much, you will hit your good cards with a much higher frequency. Sage is up there in terms of $3 cost cards. Some people will compare this to Scheme, but I think in a lot of cases, this is much more solid because it will always hit something whereas Scheme is just +1 card +1 Action

Vagrant: Not good. Not bad. But, most often, if you hit $2, you will want to pick this one up. It does shine though if there is curing and looting going on in the same game. Sadly, this is what Scout should have been and at half the cost. Oops, did I mention Scout? My bad.

Feodum: Hmm....I honestly haven't figured this card out yet. Alt. VPs take some time to get used to.

Mystic: I usually avoid this card. It seems okay, but I always feel the other $5 on the board are better to purchase. So, I really need to playtest this more.

Rebuild: This is a tricky card. It is good at ending the game, but sometimes going for a straight up BM strategy will prevail over the Rebuild strategy. The thing about Rebuild is that it quickens the game, but the increase in points is not that large. You trash an estate get two points by getting a ducky, trash a duchy and you have increased your lead by 3 points when you get a Province. It is a card to be aware of on boards, but there might also be a better strategy available as well.

The other cards...Sadly, Squire and my Hermit friend aren't available to play with on Goko just yet. So, I can't say how they are. But, I am excited to play with the remaining 11 cards once I get the chance.

So, for those of you who have now had a chance to play a fair number of DA games, what are your thoughts on the cards?

[ehunt]

I think death cart is quite strong, but I've only played IRL. Do others disagree? Like Baron, it is game-losingly swingy on the first shuffle; unlike Baron, it's very good for the majority of the game.

[brokoli]

Death cart is VERY strong, really. Even if you play it and trash it immediately, 5$ is huge. Clearly in the top 10 of the best 4$ IMO.

I thought cultist was overpowered, but now I really like this card, very interesting strategically.
I thought poor house was very strong, and I already underrated it. This card is super powerful.

I really underrated altar, but it's pretty decent in fact.

[dondon151]

Death cart is VERY strong, really. Even if you play it and trash it immediately, 5$ is huge. Clearly in the top 10 of the best 4$ IMO.

If one guy keeps his Death Cart and the other doesn't, then player 1 is up 1 Death Cart and player 2 is up one Ruins. Looks like a super swingy opening to me. Not that it means that it's necessarily bad, but in the worst case scenario where you lose your Death Cart... you get, what, a $7 cost card in exchange for having 2 more Ruins in your deck than the other player? Considering that most of the power cards are at $5 anyway, I don't really see the point.

I guess you could argue that it's worth trying to get to an early Platinum.

[aaron0013]

Death cart is VERY strong, really. Even if you play it and trash it immediately, 5$ is huge. Clearly in the top 10 of the best 4$ IMO.

If one guy keeps his Death Cart and the other doesn't, then player 1 is up 1 Death Cart and player 2 is up one Ruins. Looks like a super swingy opening to me. Not that it means that it's necessarily bad, but in the worst case scenario where you lose your Death Cart... you get, what, a $7 cost card in exchange for having 2 more Ruins in your deck than the other player? Considering that most of the power cards are at $5 anyway, I don't really see the point.

I guess you could argue that it's worth trying to get to an early Platinum.

You don't ever have to lose your death cart.  If I drew it on turn 3 or 4 without a ruins, I probably wouldn't play it.  But that does put you quite a bit behind...

[jsh357]

This is all from IRL experience mostly, but with some Androminion play as well.

Bandit Camp - Seems like it's not as effective as you'd think a lot of the time.  Getting a delayed $3 is often worse than getting $1 right away.  On the other hand, $3 is still $3.  Big opportunity cost for this card at $5.

Beggar - Often way better than I'd think, for basically having the opposite effect of Bandit Camp.  $3 right away, crappier hands later.  If you do that late in the game, it doesn't even matter.  I don't think it's a power $2, though.

Catacombs - An amazing terminal draw BM enabler, not much else to say about it.  Cycling 6 cards is fantastic sometimes.  I have yet to use the on trash effect.

Count - Seems very strong if you can get them early.  Obvious synergy with Duke and Silk Road, but even the trashing and $3 options are also quite good and the drawbacks often don't matter a whole bunch.  I also think it will be a power card.

Counterfeit - While using it to trash Copper is OK, trashing big Treasure is where this card really shines in my experience.  Trashing a Platinum nets you $11 and a buy, often worth the loss of a Platinum.  Chaining Counterfeits can lead to ridiculously good turns too.  A very solid card, probably not in the top 10 $5 costers but close.

Feodum - Much better than I expected as long as there is some other way to gain Silvers.  Losing Feodums early doesn't hurt much, but trashing them later for Silver does. 

Graverobber - I just don't think this is very good as a proactive card.  It's great if the opponent is trashing your power cards, and getting Provinces out of $5 cost cards is nice, but for general usage I'll probably avoid it.

Hermit / Madman - Gaining a $3 card is the worst part of the deal generally.  An excellent trasher, and Madmen are fantastic.  The thing is, you really don't want to have the Hermit forever anyway, so I tend to cash it in for a Madman early.  You need +Buy to make Madman a good "finisher" card, but it can help you purchase high cost cards early in the game or draw lots of cards you want to play/trash regardless.

Hunting Grounds - Seems strong to me.  As long as you can afford to draw cards dead or have a ton of villages, drawing 4 cards can be huge for you.  Not sure about the trashing effect, which has never come up for me, but it seems good as well.

Junk Dealer - While this is definitely good, I don't think it's better than Upgrade--they're apples and oranges anyway. 

Marauder - A bit like Sea Hag except you can continue gaining Spoils after the Ruins are out.  That said, I don't think giving Ruins out is nearly as effective as Curses.  They are more entertaining to play with, though.  Marauder is a card I often want to phase out with a trash for benefit card later on.

Market Square - I disagree with the OP, I think this is a power $3.  The Gold gaining effect is superior to Tunnel's as long as there is an enabler on the board, as trashing increases the likelihood that MS will be in the hand to see future trashing.  Even if you don't use that effect, $3 for a non-terminal +Buy card (remember Hamlet?) is a great deal and can save an engine that needed it.  The +Buy also greatly benefits the Gold-gaining deck.  You don't want to overbuy Market Square (much like Tunnel in that regard) but I have found it a key card in many decks I've made with it in the Kingdom.

Mystic - Certainly undervalued in a lot of analysis I've seen.  If you have any card that gives you knowledge of upcoming cards (including enemy attacks like Spy or Scrying Pool), Mystic is great to have in hand.  With trashing, Mystics become very easy to chain as well.  They are like Conspirators that don't need 2 Actions played beforehand but require a bit of deck knowledge.  Players who are already used to using Wishing Well effectively can use this one similarly.  That said, they're maybe just an average $5 card.  There's a lot of competition there.

Rats - I am just not seeing it most of the time.  Even combos I think will be great kick me in the face.  I haven't given up on this card, as it's a lot of fun to play with, but I'm going to need to see it to believe it.

Rebuild - I don't think this is very good, honestly, for reasons the OP states.  It doesn't gain you many points on play, and essentially just empties piles.  If you're already in control of the game, that's great, but often you are not.

Rogue - This card seems rather complex to me.  It really kind of does its own thing.  The trash will almost always have no good cards in it when Rogue's around because it will keep snatching things up.  You also hit cards you don't want a lot, like Silver.  Probably good vs. Engines? 

Ruins - They don't hurt you as much as you'd expect sometimes.  Abandoned Mine and Abandoned Market can be lifesavers, and Survivors is sometimes not terrible.  There are also cards that enjoy having the extra Actions, like Scrying Pool, Vineyard and Death Cart.

Sage - It's pretty average.  Doesn't help you much late, can trigger bad reshuffles early, but skipping Coppers is nice midgame.

Scavenger - Holy crap, Chancellor just became awesome.  Choosing a card to topdeck and then reshuffling is plain killer.  It reminds me of Computer Search from the Pokemon TCG: Gets you what you need when you need it.

Spoils - Seem better than Silver on average.  Oddly, I find myself using them to buy Gold more than anything else.

Squire - While it seems amazing for its cost, I think Squire is easy to overestimate.  Gaining a good attack is only useful in some Kingdoms (Goons, Familiar).  The 3 effects are nice (I haven't got much out of 2 Buys, but gaining a Buy is good in itself) but no +Card means you have to have some kind of support FOR Squire to truly make it shine, a property usually reserved for more powerful cards.  Maybe in the top 5 $2 cost cards, though.

Urchin / Mercenary - Urchin is pretty ineffectual, but Mercenary rocks.  Trashing cards, getting good money hands, making people discard, what's not to like?  Well, it's hard to play later on in the game sometimes.   I usually will only pick up 1 Mercenary and maybe use Urchin as a cantrip for other reasons.  These cards are pretty good, but maybe not in the top tier of options at their price point.

Vagrant - I have found it's usually a good filler card and nothing more, aside from foreknowledge combos.  A bit like Pearl Diver only slightly better usually.

[werothegreat]

Most of these cards can't really be judged in and of themselves - most of them are built strictly for effective combinations.  Rats, Fortress and Death Cart all depend on other cards being on the board, but when those other cards are there, they are dominant.  Death Cart alone = meh.  Rats alone = murr.   Death Cart + Rats = I win.

[igelkott]

I generally agree with most of what's been said, and I'll add a few more comments.

Forager can be very strong when there are extra treasure stacks (and don't forget potion), especially if there are also +actions. But if your Foragers run into Rogues, well, then forget it.

Trashing Feodums can provide great bursts of silver to counter Thief/Pirate Ship/Noble Brigand attacks.

Vagrants can be really good if you have +buys. Buy one at a time with your leftover cash from more important purchases. Then in numbers they're great for filtering green, especially toward the end of the game.

Chris

[dondon151]

Death Cart alone = meh.  Rats alone = murr.   Death Cart + Rats = I win.

I know that conlanging is a hobby of yours, but what kind of language uses "meh" and "murr" for "I" and "win"...

[Archetype]

Death Cart alone = meh.  Rats alone = murr.   Death Cart + Rats = I win.

I know that conlanging is a hobby of yours, but what kind of language uses "meh" and "murr" for "I" and "win"...

werothegreat's

[werothegreat]

Death Cart alone = meh.  Rats alone = murr.   Death Cart + Rats = I win.

I know that conlanging is a hobby of yours, but what kind of language uses "meh" and "murr" for "I" and "win"...

The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.  Think of it more like multiplication than addition.

[ycz6]

The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.

Uh,

[PitzerMike]

Rebuild definitely looks more innocent than it is.
From my experience a very basic 3 Rebuild + a few silvers strategy beats all the baseline strategies like BM+X or Double Jack handily because it's just so fast. You need almost no economy, just enough to get 5$ for a few Rebuilds and possibly a few extra duchies. You can also add in one or two terminals like militia to slow down your opponent, setting the bar really high for competing strategies.
However it can be stopped quite easily by adjusting slightly. Just get a single Rebuild and turn the 3 starting estates into duchies + buy a fourth duchy while you can and you should be fine going for any other strategy. Alternate VP may complicate things of course. It definitely looks like a great Duke enabler.

Also Wandering Minstrel was just ridiculous in the few games I've played with it. There was one Scrying Pool + Vineyards game, then a Pirate Ship game with some +buy (I think Market Square), and one with Bridge. In all of these Wandering Minstrel was a huge game changer. I'd also imagine it'd be a great Conspirator enabler.

[aaron0013]

Death Cart alone = meh.  Rats alone = murr.   Death Cart + Rats = I win.

I know that conlanging is a hobby of yours, but what kind of language uses "meh" and "murr" for "I" and "win"...

The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.  Think of it more like multiplication than addition.

The whole is equal to the sum of its parts, and the whole is greater than any of its parts...it still doesn't make any sense

[werothegreat]

The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.

Uh,

DON'T JUDGE ME.

[zahlman]

Does Death Cart + Fortress work well?

[werothegreat]

Does Death Cart + Fortress work well?

If you have +Buy.

[Beyond Awesome]

Now, that all of DA has been released, I am finding that some of the cards are making me think too hard. So many choices. I guess that is a good thing instead of having a straight up obvious strategy. I feel that Hinterlands and Dark Ages by far add the most strategy to the game and reward more skilled playing. With that said, I have been playing fairly poorly with the newly released cards. Of course, part of that is because I want to play with the shiny new objects and try and see if they will do cool things and then fail miserably.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I will add some more thoughts. I can say I have not played an adequate amount of games with the last 3rd of DA that Goko release, so I am certain that my opinions on cards will change.

So, here we go.

Hermit/Madman--This is a power $3. It is one of the best trashers in the game because it can trash from the discard. I find usually two of these are enough. Like Jack, it trashes, and it trashes even harder than Jack. Unlike, Jack, it doesn't draw you back to 5. But, you can always forgo a buy and gain a silver or another Hermit and get a Madman in exchange. I am not 100% sure when to get Madman, but it is a pretty nifty card. Overall, I would say Hermit is up there with the power trashers that aren't Chapel.

Counterfit--I love this card! I didn't think I would like it so much until I started playing with it. Having two in a deck sounds about right. It really helps out BM strategies and it even helps engine decks get a little extra more money while clearing out those junk coppers. Also, the +Buy comes in quite handy for those engines. A really good card, but not a top tier $5 card. It does cost $5 which is more than Spice Merchant and Moneylender, but the fact it is non-terminal and guarantees +Buy and Coin, makes it worth it.

Urchin/Mercenary--Urchin is beyond weak. Worst attack in the game, period. It almost never hurts you. However, Mercenary is strong, but it isn't Followers which I thought it would be like at first. Followers is the best curser in the game without question. Mercenary doesn't dish out curses and that makes all the difference. It is a good trasher, but I would take pretty much any trasher over it. The fact that you have to trash before drawing hurts at times and I find myself not playing it as much as I would like. It is a strong card, but you lose a good $3 buy and then have to match Urchin up with another attack, sometimes another Urchin. It is essentially Militia with trashing that is hard to set up. My thoughts, just buy Militia and money instead. Maybe, I'm wrong though.

Knights--It really depends on the board for these guys. Overall, I would say they are stronger than Saboteur because the benefit they give you makes up for the fact they only look at the top two and can't hit Provinces. If you need +Buy, then Sir Martin is a needed purchase. The 2VP one is worth getting because 2VP is always nice and it attacks as well. I won't go through them individually, but like I said, it really depends on the board. You really shouldn't buy it for the attack, but the bonus the top Knight of the pile offers. For example, the +$2 can work amazingly well in a Hunting Party deck as your terminal $2 while hurting destroying your opponents Hunting Parties. Overall, I would say Knights are an average $5 card.

Squire--This looks better than it is, but it is still strong. The fact that it doesn't draw you card is a huge drawback. Sometimes, it is a copper that gains you a silver. Most of the time, you should not try to build an engine with these unless there is some sort of other Village as well. For BM, it is a Workshop essentially that gives you an extra $. For engines, if you find yourself needing extra cash, you gain a silver. The +buys come in handy and so do the +Actions, but Hamlet this is not. Still, a strong $2, just not among the best $2s ever. Oh, and this is amazing in a Gardens deck. Those +2 Buys really, really help. Also, if any good attacks are on the board and a good trasher like Steward or Chapel, then Squire is a great buy just for the fact you can get an early Witch or Goons or Familiar. And, Procession/Squire can be a solid opening, gaining you two silvers, a $3 card and an attack!!!

Marauder--At first, I underestimated this card. I thought it was too slow of an attack. Afterall, Sea Hag put curses on top of your opponents deck, having a more immediate effect and this gave out Ruins which don't hurt as much as Curses. But, it ends up that gaining a Spoils and giving out a Ruins on a $4 card is actually quite powerful. This isn't as strong as Sea Hag, but setting back your opponent is nice while getting a spoils in return to cash on a gold or nice $5 card.

Rogue--This card is crap! Okay, maybe, I'm wrong, but this is like a delayed Thief with $2 on it. In most cases, you hit your opponents silver and then get it out of the trash on the next reshuffle. Okay, sometimes you get lucky and hit a Duchy, but overall, I think Rogue is weak. But, to be fair, I have not played with it much. Doesn't change my opinion of it though. But, if for some reason, you can use a terminal $2, I guess it is worth going for.

Graverobber--I am still working on this card, trying to figure it out. Like I said, I haven't had enough time to play with this batch of DA cards to truly make solid judgments. Overall, I think it can be strong. It allows you turn $5's into Provinces. If you have a way to draw most of your deck, then adding Graverobber might be worth it, so you can transform a $5 into a Province. You lose the $5, but usually a Province is better. But, it depends. To be honest, this is a tricky card. Cool though. At the moment, I am not sure where to rank it.

Hunting Grounds--This is a nice $6. In BM games, pick up two of these before your first gold. You might not even have to pick up gold with two of these in your deck. Although, if another card drawer is on the board like Smithy or Envoy just go for that instead. Or, if you have one Smithy, use your first $6 on a single Hunting Grounds. For engines, getting that one extra card makes a difference. And, if for some reason, it goes to the trash, you can get a Duchy in its place. I would say it is a decent $6, but not an amazing $6. Maybe more testing will show otherwise though.

Poor House--On many boards, this is a bad card. But, on some boards, it is super strong. However, I have found that good trashing isn't good enough. To make this card work, you will always need a source of +Action. Also, card draw goes a long way. I feel that Hamlet would be amazing card for Poor House decks, but I haven't had a chance to play it yet since Cornucopia is not on Goko. I did play a game though with Chapel, Poor House, and Squire. It was nice having won a game with only $2 and $1 cost cards that weren't Fool's Gold. Provinces don't count. So, all in all, on the right board, a single Poor House often adds $3 or $4 and is well worth going after.

Storeroom--The fact this is terminal makes it more like Secret Chamber than Cellar. To be honest, this needs the right deck. I have bought it a few times and regretted it. I am sure though there are times when it will come in handy. I think I need to playtest this card more. But, I would say it is weaker than it looks.

On another note, I have played around with Procession and Mystic more. Mystic is decent, but a weaker $5, for sure. It feels a lot like Wishing Well and not Conspirator. Some cards do make it worth buying such as Wandering Minstrel, which is an amazing Village. In those cases, if you have a source of +Buy, Mystic can act like a Grand Market. Regarding, Procession, the board has to be right, but Fortress goes along well with Procession, as does Squire. Sometimes, being able to play an action twice and getting an action $1 more than it, is worth losing that action, but it is a tricky card. I would love to try this out on a Border Village board though. Procession is not one of my favorite cards, though, but I will play around with it more and see what works and what doesn't.

[ipofanes]

Rebuild definitely looks more innocent than it is.
From my experience a very basic 3 Rebuild + a few silvers strategy beats all the baseline strategies like BM+X or Double Jack handily because it's just so fast. You need almost no economy, just enough to get 5$ for a few Rebuilds and possibly a few extra duchies. You can also add in one or two terminals like militia to slow down your opponent, setting the bar really high for competing strategies.

My 9yo son beat me on the recommended DA/Intrigue kingdom (with Great Halls and Nobles) on merit of an early Rebuild, which I had underestimated.

[ipofanes]

Junk Dealer - While this is definitely good, I don't think it's better than Upgrade--they're apples and oranges anyway. 

Junk Dealer tends to bite you earlier than Upgrade as I'd rather Upgrade that Silver to a Bridge than trashing it for a one-time $1. Upgrade becomes atrocious not before you have a hand full of Gold and Provinces.

[Beyond Awesome]

Junk Dealer - While this is definitely good, I don't think it's better than Upgrade--they're apples and oranges anyway. 

Junk Dealer tends to bite you earlier than Upgrade as I'd rather Upgrade that Silver to a Bridge than trashing it for a one-time $1. Upgrade becomes atrocious not before you have a hand full of Gold and Provinces.

That's the point. Junk Dealer is quicker at clearing the junk out of your deck than Upgrade. On some boards, Upgrade is better, on other boards, Junk Dealer is better.

[ipofanes]

>  Mystic is decent, but a weaker $5, for sure. It feels a lot like Wishing Well and not Conspirator.

As others have pointed out already, there are tons of cards that allow you to make educated guesses with a Mystic, but far less (one of them being the laughing stock of this board) that would allow the same for Wishing Well.

[brokoli]

I think storeroom is excellent. It's great in engines with no trashing, it helps the deck cycling and have a lot of combos (menagerie, philosopher's stone...)

I don't played with Rogue much, but it seems more powerful than what Beyond Awesome says. I don't understand the comparison with thief since thief only steal treasures...

[Insomniac]

To put it out there, Rebuild is an impressive albeit soft counter to ambassador.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think storeroom is excellent. It's great in engines with no trashing, it helps the deck cycling and have a lot of combos (menagerie, philosopher's stone...)

I don't played with Rogue much, but it seems more powerful than what Beyond Awesome says. I don't understand the comparison with thief since thief only steal treasures...

I compared it to Thief because most of the time, Rogue hits Silver. Okay, that is better than Thief since that mostly hits copper in the beginning, helping your opponent, but hitting his silver and then having to wait until the next reshuffle isn't that impressive. I guess against some decks Rogue is okay like if there are a lot of engine components you need that your opponent has.

[LastFootnote]

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.

[clb]

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.

The implication here is that Rogue, like Pirate Ship and Thief/NB, plays much differently in 4P than in 2P. Typically, Rogue looks gimicky, but sometimes I am very jealous of the loot coming out of the trash. Of course, the best scenario is playing multiple Rogues in a turn or a Rogue after some other TfB. Otherwise, you risk others grabbing your cards.
The last deck I saw with Rogue, I was going double-Tac with Forager (Platinum, Quarry, and Stash on the board to sweeten the deal). I traashed a Gold to get Forager up to $4. Before I got my next turn to use it again, a Rogue stole the Gold from the trash, reverting the Forager to $3.

[Insomniac]

My guess is that, like most trashing attacks in 2P games, you've got to buy several Rogues and play them often in order to see results.

The implication here is that Rogue, like Pirate Ship and Thief/NB, plays much differently in 4P than in 2P. Typically, Rogue looks gimicky, but sometimes I am very jealous of the loot coming out of the trash. Of course, the best scenario is playing multiple Rogues in a turn or a Rogue after some other TfB. Otherwise, you risk others grabbing your cards.
The last deck I saw with Rogue, I was going double-Tac with Forager (Platinum, Quarry, and Stash on the board to sweeten the deal). I traashed a Gold to get Forager up to $4. Before I got my next turn to use it again, a Rogue stole the Gold from the trash, reverting the Forager to $3.

At a local tourney in a multiplayer game a guy played a rogue trashing a duchy of mine and a duchy of another opponent, he played two rogues to steal both the duchies and bought a province...The result...he got first beating me by 6 points, or the swing you get from stealing a duchy

[ftl]

Rogue being a terminal Silver makes it a lot better, too. If you have a turn and just play a Rogue, trashing a silver, you don't feel like you've lost any buying power.

[ipofanes]

Otherwise, you risk others grabbing "your" cards.

FTFY

[ipofanes]

To put it out there, Rebuild is an impressive albeit soft counter to ambassador.

If we play with Estates in starting deck, that is. Rebuilt Hovels take some effort until they look prestigious.

[brokoli]

I just found an interesting combo : Graverobber-Treasury.
The idea is to take 1 graverobber and rush on treasuries.
Play all treasuries except the one that you'll expand to province (with graverobber).
Then buy another treasury, and put them all on top of your deck...
And When you don't have treasury to trash, just play graverobber to gain a treasury from the trash.
The only problem is that your opponent may gain treasuries from the trash too !

To put it out there, Rebuild is an impressive albeit soft counter to ambassador.

If we play with Estates in starting deck, that is. Rebuilt Hovels take some effort until they look prestigious.

You mean overgrown estate, I guess ? ^^

Also, rebuild is probably the best counter to duke.

[ipofanes]

I just found an interesting combo : Graverobber-Treasury.
The idea is to take 1 graverobber and rush on treasuries.
Play all treasuries except the one that you'll expand to province (with graverobber).
Then buy another treasury, and put them all on top of your deck...
And When you don't have treasury to trash, just play graverobber to gain a treasury from the trash.
The only problem is that your opponent may gain treasuries from the trash too !

Thanks for that! I am a sucker for Treasuries. Especially with King's Court, as KC has very likely a target then, and with Menagerie, as you have one less slot to destroy your variety in hand.

You mean overgrown estate, I guess ? ^^

Yes, of course. I forgot that Hovel is not a Victory card. For me, Dark Ages have not been out for that long yet.

[ftl]

If shelters are out, they already counter ambassador.

[sandstorm]

A few random thoughts on Shelters and others

- Golem and Farming Village do not mix with Necropolis and Ruins.  Scrying Pool and Vineyard on the other hand ...

- Great Hall/Silver (Trash Hovel) is a strong opening.  In fact I believe it is the first opening in Dominion history to guarantee a hand of at least 5 coin on turns 3 or 4. (Barring IGG/Noble Brigand/edge cases).  See Hovel Secret History for further hints at its strength

- Count is awesome at a lot of things but especially Scrying Pool and Watchtower style engines

- This is probably the wrong place for dominion wiki feedback (Wiki looks great!) but in the Hovel article it says that it antisynergizes (probably not a word) with Chapel or other strong trashers because you can't use the reaction.  This seems wrong to me since I'm guessing about 99% of boards where opening Chapel is the right decision when starting with Estates it is also the right decision when starting with Shelters.  Remake might not be wise but that is because of the 1 cost not the inability to use the reaction.  The reaction is just another way to remove the card from your deck.  I would say strong trashers have no synergy with Hovel not antisynergy.

- Lastly, if you have ever raged when your Wharf has been swindled to a Duchy and you swindled your opponents Estate into an Estate.  Wait until you swindle their Shelter into nothing.

[Beyond Awesome]

A few random thoughts on Shelters and others

- Golem and Farming Village do not mix with Necropolis and Ruins.  Scrying Pool and Vineyard on the other hand ...

- Great Hall/Silver (Trash Hovel) is a strong opening.  In fact I believe it is the first opening in Dominion history to guarantee a hand of at least 5 coin on turns 3 or 4. (Barring IGG/Noble Brigand/edge cases).  See Hovel Secret History for further hints at its strength

- Count is awesome at a lot of things but especially Scrying Pool and Watchtower style engines

- This is probably the wrong place for dominion wiki feedback (Wiki looks great!) but in the Hovel article it says that it antisynergizes (probably not a word) with Chapel or other strong trashers because you can't use the reaction.  This seems wrong to me since I'm guessing about 99% of boards where opening Chapel is the right decision when starting with Estates it is also the right decision when starting with Shelters.  Remake might not be wise but that is because of the 1 cost not the inability to use the reaction.  The reaction is just another way to remove the card from your deck.  I would say strong trashers have no synergy with Hovel not antisynergy.

- Lastly, if you have ever raged when your Wharf has been swindled to a Duchy and you swindled your opponents Estate into an Estate.  Wait until you swindle their Shelter into nothing.

Count is awesome--period!

And, better yet, swindle their overgrown estate into nothing and have them draw a card.

[Beyond Awesome]

I will say this, having played more games with Marauder, it is a top tier $4 card for sure. At first, I didn't think it was that strong due to Ruins not being as bad as curses and it not hitting the top of the deck like Sea Hag, but getting that Spoils every reshuffle on a $4 card makes up for the fact it hands out Ruins. I believe that Marauder is one of the three best $4 cards along with Sea Hag an JoaT. I am pretty sure of this now.

[ipofanes]

I will say this, having played more games with Marauder, it is a top tier $4 card for sure. At first, I didn't think it was that strong due to Ruins not being as bad as curses and it not hitting the top of the deck like Sea Hag, but getting that Spoils every reshuffle on a $4 card makes up for the fact it hands out Ruins. I believe that Marauder is one of the three best $4 cards along with Sea Hag an JoaT. I am pretty sure of this now.

I don't even know if Cursing is much better than Ruining. As the pile of Ruins is near undepletable, at least in 2P games, a ruining Sea Hag without TfB is still of good use after Turn 25. Granted, you won't see her very frequently anymore :-)

[hsiale]

You use only 10 Ruins in a two player game. It's exactly the same rule as with Curses - 10 for each player except the first one.

[ipofanes]

You use only 10 Ruins in a two player game. It's exactly the same rule as with Curses - 10 for each player except the first one.

Thanks! I must have overlooked this in the rules for some reason.

I suck at rules not enforced by isotropic.

Yet Marauder > Sea Hag.

[brokoli]

Yet Marauder > Sea Hag.

No.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Could anybody give me some feasible scenarios where Lookout still outclasses Forager? Non-terminal trashing for that price is pretty good, but Forager gives +$ (sometimes a lot), +buy ánd control over what it is you're trashing. All Lookout gives in return is a slightly larger handsize and a bit of cycling. Right?

Oh, and to chime in on the Rogue discussion: it (obviously) combo's incredibly with Feodum. Graverobber will do, but Rogue gives +$2 to buy silvers and new Feodums.

[jsh357]

I would say Lookout can top Forager in several situations.  First, it trashes a card outside of your hand.  Second, it directly eliminates Curses from Sea Hag and can help you against Ghost Ship.  The cycling is not always that big a deal but can be.  Forager is a great trasher too, but I'd take Lookout in some circumstances still, even though it's one of my least favorite trashers.

[DG]

All Lookout gives in return is a slightly larger handsize and a bit of cycling. Right?

You get a noticable benefit when you can play the lookout then draw the top card into hand in the same turn. A cartographer is worth 5 coins for selecting the best cards from the top of the deck and the lookout does something similar.

[sandstorm]

I think there are more times when Lookout is preferred to Forager than when Trade Route is preferred to Forager.  Trade Route is to Forager what Thief is to Noble Brigand.

[Dubdubdubdub]

@DG and jsh: definitely good points. I never thought I would just find silent agreement on this forum Especially the Cartographer/Scout/Apothecary etc. functionality DG mentioned can be very strong.

[aaron0013]

Finally got DA irl yesterday!  So happy

Found a combo that seemed to work pretty well: Graverobber/Rats/Nobles.  Of course, Nobles can be substituted for any high cost action card, but it helped with my engine draw (Mining Villages are awesome in Graverobber games) and it also got me ahead on VP.

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)

[brokoli]

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)

Remodel seems better for purpose...

[aaron0013]

(For those who have no idea what I am talking about, I buy Rats, start trashing my deck, buy a Graverobber, and turn my Rats into Nobles.)

Remodel seems better for purpose...

Very true unless your high card cost 7, or you want to turn your Graverobbers into Provinces, or you want to get your Nobles out of the trash after turning them to Provinces...

[dondon151]

Played 3 games with Young Nick today and happened upon Storeroom/Quarry as a moderately strong combo. Storeroom gives +buy and cycling and helps with matching multiple Quarries in hand.

Obviously Storeroom on its own is not a payload (unlike e.g., Grand Market) and this needs to have strong Actions in the kingdom in order to itself be strong. The kingdom that we played had Nobles, Bandit Camp, and Sage and it was rather early when I began picking up 2x Nobles + Bandit Camp or Plat + Nobles + Sage turns and such. Storeroom obviously also synergizes directly with the engine if there is a surplus of actions.

Speaking of Grand Market, Storeroom finding a Quarry automatically yields a Grand Market.

[jaybeez]

I had my first really good session with Dark Ages on Sunday (all 4P), I'd played with it a little before that but only a couple games.  I don't really have a handle on any of the cards yet, but I do know I like Ironmonger a lot.  The thing that really jumped out at me about Dark Ages is how much Shelters change the game.  Ambassador and Hunting Party become far less powerful, Baron becomes almost useless, Upgrade and especially Remake are weaker unless there's a really good $2 you want, Swindler gets weaker, Menagerie gets yet better as do Chapel and Steward, and all good trashing really.  Others I'm not sure of (Masquerade?  Is Silk Road weaker, and if so how much?  How much better does Fairgrounds get, I mean is it worth it to keep the Shelters to boost the Fairgrounds?  Great Hall gets better as an opener because of Hovel, but how does Hovel affect the other hybrid Victory cards?)

I'm impressed with how much Shelters change the strategic landscape, and how enjoyable and interesting those changes are.  I'm looking forward to playing with them more.  Bravo, Donald.

[Beyond Awesome]

Played 3 games with Young Nick today and happened upon Storeroom/Quarry as a moderately strong combo. Storeroom gives +buy and cycling and helps with matching multiple Quarries in hand.

Obviously Storeroom on its own is not a payload (unlike e.g., Grand Market) and this needs to have strong Actions in the kingdom in order to itself be strong. The kingdom that we played had Nobles, Bandit Camp, and Sage and it was rather early when I began picking up 2x Nobles + Bandit Camp or Plat + Nobles + Sage turns and such. Storeroom obviously also synergizes directly with the engine if there is a surplus of actions.

Speaking of Grand Market, Storeroom finding a Quarry automatically yields a Grand Market.

Storeroom has a lot of potential. It is also great in alternate VP decks such as Duke, SR, and Gardens.

[aaron0013]

My favorite DA cards so far:  Counterfeit, Rats, Fortress, Junk Dealer, and WHARF!!!. oh right.

[brokoli]

So here are my thoughts :

Altar : I underrated this card so much... it's really great for engines, where there are a lot of $5. The trashing is often good, but sometimes a penalty. Note that altar do not have the "if you do" clause, so you'll sometimes reveal a hand of nothing and gain a free $5 card.

Armory : Better than I expected. I like the tactic component here (gain the card you'll need for now or for the next turn...

Band of misfits : Rather weak, seriously. But sometimes can really shine (remodel, village-draw, etc). Otherwise very interesting card.

Bandit camp : It seems very powerful to me, I lost a game where my opponent only bought bandit camps and money, that's disappointing.

Beggar : I love copper engines and I think the game need more defenses to attack. So obviously beggar is a very cool and interesting card.

Catacombs : I'm not a huge fan of this card. It's not bad, but not very innovative compared to other dark ages cards. The on-trash effect is weird and is infrequently used. But we need terminal draw in all sets...

Count : Not so difficult to understand, all effects synergize. The trashing ability is less powerful than I thought first. Otherwise another powerful and interesting card.

Counterfeit : Very very strong, for engines as well as Big money games. I like the versatility and the choices it offers.

Cultist : Great attack card, not as boring as witch/mountebank/goons/etc. And the on-trash effect make it so interesting !

Death cart : Swingy, but a terminal $5, even one shot, is strong. Ruins slow the deck cycling though.

Feodum : I love this one. A real headache because we are always faced with the choice to trash or not a feodum (usually it depends on the kingdom of course).

Forager : Nothing special to say, very good trasher overall.

Fortress : It's funny to use it as a target for all trashers when you got rid of all your coppers and estates. Not the best $4 village, but a very fun one.

Graverobber : Beside the combo with treasury, from the few games I played with graverobber it wasn't very strong. But I guess it is great in engines with villages.

Hermit / Madman : One of my favourite of the set, but it seems to be a trap very often. The trashing ability is very weak (except in cursing games, where it's almost as good as Jack). The mandatory gain can be a flaw... and most importantly the way to gain madman is problematic : early it's easy, but madman won't be great with so few good cards. Later it will be pretty difficult to gain the madman (but this time it will be great). Also, against handsize reducers madman is really bad.

Hunting grounds : Very strong as I thought. But like catacombs I'm disappointed that the on-trash effect is not very often useful.

Ironmonger : The randomness make it, like Tribute, risky. However, I think Ironmonger is more often controllable, and it's interesting to use instead of village when you need +2 actions.

Junk dealer : Simple and solid. I'm almost surprised to see such a simple card in an expansion like Dark Ages ^^

Knights : For the time being, my favourite card(s) of the set. I have a particular love for Molly and Josephine. I really like how sometimes they prevent mirror matches.

Marauder : Sea Hag is better.

Market Square : Usually weak, because the effects anti-synergize. But as a source of +buy market square is nice.

Mystic : An average $5 cards, now you can do all the things you always wanted to do with wishing well.

Pillage : I don't know if this is very strong. The attack is brutal but you get no direct profit from it, two spoils are not so good...

Poor house : Sometimes incredibly powerful, other times useless. I like the $1 cost, especially when upgrade is in the kingdom ! ^^

Procession : Very interesting and tricky card. I really like it !

Rats : A "double-edged" card, and I love how it's thematic. One of my fav of the set too.

Rogue : I love this one, because you are forced to do one of the 2 things... and if you don't gain that workshop from the trash, you can't attack your opponent anymore. Otherwise rogue is not so bad !

Sage : Great in engines with no trashing, and in opening. But very frustrating when you hit a province (and it happens very often).

Scavenger : Nice scheme-chancellor, a solid $4.

Squire : At first, I thought it was the best $2 of the game. Now, I think it's near to the worst (ok I exaggerate a bit) : the lack of +card is terrible and usually you don't need terminal +2 buy or terminal silver-gainer. I never used the on-trash effect though.

Storeroom : Honestly I think it's an excellent $3, probably a little below the top 10. It's a great card for deck cycling and combos.

Urchin / Mercenary : It's very easy to gain the mercenary, which is quite strong, but get progressively worse later during the game... like Hermit, not alxays indispensable.

Vagrant : Very good $2. Better than scout !

Wandering minstrel : One of the worst $4 village, I think (still pretty close). It's quite insignificant in games with trashing, and otherwise you don't really want to discard your treasures.

My favourites are Knights, Rats, Feodum, Hermit and Rogue. 

[Jimmmmm]

Market Square : Usually weak, because the effects anti-synergize. But as a source of +buy market square is nice.

I wouldn't say the effect anti-synergize. I mean, obviously you have to choose one or the other at any given time, but in a slim deck with lots of Gold, +buys are great. I've only played one game with them both, but I thought Chapel/MS was a great opening.

[LastFootnote]

No opinions about Rebuild, brokoli?

[Voltgloss]

The presence of Shelters brings Fairgrounds up to a potential 8 VP in an otherwise completely standard kingdom.  (10 Kingdom cards, Cop/Sil/Gold, Est/Duc/Prov, 3 Shelters, and Curse = 20 different cards.)  If the cards available can even remotely support that kind of "one of everything" approach, 8 VP for $6 is incredibly powerful and makes for some very fun games.

[aaron0013]

I think Count is excellent at trashing.  I once trashed 2 Shelters and about 4 Coppers in one turn with it.  Yes, it does cost $5, but if you can get it soon enough, you will find yourself way ahead of the others in trashing.

[flies]

The presence of Shelters brings Fairgrounds up to a potential 8 VP in an otherwise completely standard kingdom.  (10 Kingdom cards, Cop/Sil/Gold, Est/Duc/Prov, 3 Shelters, and Curse = 20 different cards.)  If the cards available can even remotely support that kind of "one of everything" approach, 8 VP for $6 is incredibly powerful and makes for some very fun games.

My experience is that Fairgrounds (like menagerie) is way better with shelters, but 20 different cards is really hard to swing, even with knights.  I'd guess that if you went for 20 cards and I went for 15, I'd get more FG than you.  If you're playing with shelters and Black Market then maybe, but I still think you're better off aiming for 15.

[flies]

Regarding Rogue, I think it's generally quite weak in 2P.  Without strong trashing, it's likely to miss on the attack often - less so later in the game. The attack is considerably weaker than Saboteur (won't hit provinces/plats etc, Sab keeps digging till it finds s/t) and Sab is known to be weak.  Often there's something in the trash that you don't want (e.g. silver, rats, curser/looter after curses/ruins are gone), and you must gain it, which is quite a pain. 

On the other hand, I've had games where I draw my whole deck every turn, play a pillage, then rogue it back into my deck for next turn.  Pretty hard to come back from a pillage every turn.

I will have another look at it - I haven't tried hitting my opponent hard with it.  In any case, it's going to be most useful when you and your opponent(s) are going for engines.  In BM, Rogue is a terminal silver+slow thief, which is terrible.

[brokoli]

I disagree.
Sometimes there is something in the trash you trashed yourself (remodeled gold, etc).
And the terminal silver is still pretty good, compared to Sab/Thief.

And yeah, I think rogue is really good against engines.

[Jimmmmm]

The presence of Shelters brings Fairgrounds up to a potential 8 VP in an otherwise completely standard kingdom.  (10 Kingdom cards, Cop/Sil/Gold, Est/Duc/Prov, 3 Shelters, and Curse = 20 different cards.)  If the cards available can even remotely support that kind of "one of everything" approach, 8 VP for $6 is incredibly powerful and makes for some very fun games.

My experience is that Fairgrounds (like menagerie) is way better with shelters, but 20 different cards is really hard to swing, even with knights.  I'd guess that if you went for 20 cards and I went for 15, I'd get more FG than you.  If you're playing with shelters and Black Market then maybe, but I still think you're better off aiming for 15.

I suppose the good thing about Fairgrounds is that you can often empty the pile and then focus on getting your unique card count up where you want it.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't agree with you brokoli on Wandering Minstrel being one of the worst $4 Villages in the game. I've built some nasty engines with that card. It allows you to build engines in cursing games and games without trashing, and it cost one less than Cartographer and gives +actions.

Also, I have to disagree with your thoughts on Count not being a good trasher. If you get it early enough, you will often trash your hand twice. Some games just once, but getting rid of three cards is still strong in the early game. I find Count to be a solid and strong card.

[aaron0013]

I believe WM is my new favorite village.  It is a huge asset to engines.  Hamlet is pretty awesome though...

[zahlman]

I kinda want to play KC->Storeroom, line up a bunch of identical cards, and yell "Yahtzee!".

[brokoli]

No opinions about Rebuild, brokoli?

Haha, I wanted to see if anyone would notice.
I have no opinion right now.

Also, I have to disagree with your thoughts on Count not being a good trasher. If you get it early enough, you will often trash your hand twice. Some games just once, but getting rid of three cards is still strong in the early game. I find Count to be a solid and strong card.

I didn't say it's a bad trasher, but he is not going to replace chapel or remake, you only trash 2-3 cards in a turn...
But Count can be awesome with tactician (like forge)

[PitzerMike]

Yesterday I played a RL game with Cultist and I opened Sage / Horsetrader.
This is a real power combo and was a pretty one sided affair.
Just make sure you only add Cultists and Sages early on and the ruins will be gone in no time.
We had Hamlet on the board too which helped play "disconnected" Cultists and didn't interfere with Sage.

In another game I've played recently, Marauder looked like one of the best Duke enablers in the whole game. Open Marauder / Silver and you can pretty much skip the economy buildup phase and go directly into the Duchies.3$->Silver, 4$-> another Marauder (up to 4 or even 5) 5$+-> Duchy or Duke. Adding coppers also seems like a good idea. All the ruins slowed my Provincing opponent down so much that I could easily grab all Duchies and Dukes and even add Gardens later on just for the fun of it.

[Lille]

The presence of Shelters brings Fairgrounds up to a potential 8 VP in an otherwise completely standard kingdom.  (10 Kingdom cards, Cop/Sil/Gold, Est/Duc/Prov, 3 Shelters, and Curse = 20 different cards.)  If the cards available can even remotely support that kind of "one of everything" approach, 8 VP for $6 is incredibly powerful and makes for some very fun games.

My experience is that Fairgrounds (like menagerie) is way better with shelters, but 20 different cards is really hard to swing, even with knights.  I'd guess that if you went for 20 cards and I went for 15, I'd get more FG than you.  If you're playing with shelters and Black Market then maybe, but I still think you're better off aiming for 15.

I suppose the good thing about Fairgrounds is that you can often empty the pile and then focus on getting your unique card count up where you want it.

Fairgrounds gets the best, if a looter is in the kingdom. I played it IRL once and reached 22 different cards, thanks to my opponents cultists.

[RD]

Fairgrounds/Knights makes for some crazy games; extra variety but you can't count on keeping it. I'm tempted to think it's not reliable enough to assume you'll wind up with a ton of variety in the end; but it doesn't matter, you can't let your opponent get all the Knights uncontested.