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[Powerman]

Saboteur is a card that is often considered very weak, by both all the votes on card strength and articles written about it.  However, recently I have played many, MANY games where saboteur is clearly the dominant card, and I am struggling to find ways to beat it.

The first (easy) way to beat it is with a silver flood... namely JoaT, but also Trader etc. as you can gain more cards easily than they're trashing.

But with that said... on a 5/2, opening Saboteur can be devastating.  When your opponent only has 2 or 3 cards that cost more than $2, killing one of them really sets them back.  Obviously if you draw your Saboteur and your opponent has both opening purchases in hand it sucks, but what are the chances of that... 1/8 as P1 and next to 0 as P2?

This really stems from http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/17/game-20121117-192206-ebb4a933.html.  This is a really great board for Sab, having Highway to increase potency, SP to increase cycling, and cellar to increase early cycling.  But is it really that good to completely destroy my deck?  What can be done to beat a 5/2 Sab on a board like this?

[timchen]

It seemed to me that you are destroyed by the scrying pools. Sometimes that just happens.

[DG]

But with that said... on a 5/2, opening Saboteur can be devastating.  When your opponent only has 2 or 3 cards that cost more than $2, killing one of them really sets them back.

Not really. Saboteur+treasure would struggle against even festival+treasure. What causes you problems in this game is the trashing of key cards. The potion is a key card. All actions cards become scrying pool assets so their loss is more significant. On the other hand the scrying pools become key cards later and they are immune to the saboteur. You never got to that stage though.

In your game your first potion is trashed but you buy a monument instead of a potion at the next opportunity. This left you putting together a scrying pool deck without scrying pools, but with poor action cards such as fishing village and cellar. You needed to commit to your strategy and win the scrying pool split. I'm calling the fishing villages poor since they do not provide the initial increase in coins that allows you to spend your way past the saboteur attacks, even though you need the action cards in the long term. You also skipped the black market and a black market/potion opening is worth a shot.

This is actually quite an unusual saboteur kingdom so thanks for posting it up.

[-Stef-]

Saboteur
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Saboteur is a pretty weak card, and never a good opener. It does absolutely nothing for the person playing it. This doesn't mean it's a completely useless card, just highly situational.

What conditions make saboteur playable?

A) Kingdoms without +buy, with +actions and without (good) gain.
  If you can't gain more then 1 card/turn, then it's pretty annoying if you also lose 1 card/turn. However, even then, when there's only one action to spend, it's usually better spend on another terminal.

B) Kings Court
  Kings Court alone is usually enough to make saboteur playable. However, KC makes a lot of cards playable so even with its best friend around make sure to look for alternatives.

C) Kingdoms with a lot of deck inspection and some key card.
  For example, your opponent may be playing duchy-duke against your scrying pool deck. Now your pools can put his duchies on top and your saboteur can finish the job.



How to defend against saboteur in a kingdom unlike A, B or C?

In short: completely ignore it.

Longer version: try to gain a bit more cards then you usually would, and gain a bit more expensive cards then you usually would. Every saboteur play reduces your total deck value by only $2. That's not very much. Surely having a good $5 costing card in your hands can get you more then $2 back. Even a Silver allows you to buy for $2 more then a dead card like saboteur. Silver doesn't cost $5 like the saboteur, and silver doesn't conflict with other silvers or other actions in your deck. This concept is usually referred to as "opportunity cost".

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The game you reference here falls into category A), so saboteur is a good card. But it still is a pretty bad opener. I would much rather get one in turns 3-5 or something like that.
Problem with your deck is that it lacks a coherent plan. You try to build a highway chain, but don't have +buys, +draw or destruction. That's not going to work, no matter what your opponent does.

[werothegreat]

To add to Stef:

D) Kingdoms that revolve around a key card costing more than $3.

So if you're fighting out the City pile, a Saboteur or two can tip the scales in your favor once all the Cities have been bought.  You'll reap all the benefits, and your opponent won't have anything to show for himself, except maybe a couple Silvers.

[DStu]

To add to Stef:

D) Kingdoms that revolve around a key card costing more than $3.

So if you're fighting out the City pile, a Saboteur or two can tip the scales in your favor once all the Cities have been bought.  You'll reap all the benefits, and your opponent won't have anything to show for himself, except maybe a couple Silvers.

Also add many alternative VPs in this category.  Workshop/Gardens, Duchy/Duke is not fun if all your Gardens are destroyed by Saboteur, even if the WS protects them a bit. 

[Davio]

I think the main problem with Saboteur is just that the card isn't a lot of fun.

Meaning: Often the kingdom isn't right for it so Saboteur just wastes a spot that could have been filled by another interesting card, like Fishing Village or Menagerie. When the kingdom is right for it and going for it is justified, it can kill entire decks and this may cause a lot of frustration. Even if it doesn't frustrate a player due to trashing all his good cards, it can frustrate him by prolonging the game for an unbearable amount of time. Waiting for all the Estates, Hamlets and Cellars to clear out is really tedious.

So in essence Saboteur is often either completely skippable or not at all skippable. Now I'm not one to criticize Donald X's genius card designs, but a card that's either a sure pass in 95% of games and a sure gain in 5% of games just isn't any fun to me. Balancing is very tricky, I know that, but Saboteur doesn't cut it for me. If its only purpose is as a noob trap, well, that's only so much fun. Once a new player has tried Saboteur unsuccessfully, he'll be frustrated too: "I thought this was a powerful card! What a crappy card." and every new game that has it it, it just gets vetoed out.

Maybe 95% vs 5% and sure pass vs. sure gain is a bit too "black and white" as I've had fun stopping an opponent's Minion train with a critical Saboteur every once and a while, but to me it's just a waste of a valuable card slot.

[DStu]

I kind of agree with Davio.  I mean, in games against level30++ players, I kind of like that there is that card that is often weak, but in the right situation will win you the game.

But playing "registered only" a lot (relatively to total games) currently, I had some games where I just ignore it.  You build up this engine, there is the spot for 1-2 Sabs, but the engine is fast enough anyway.  Now buying the Sabs against some level10ish is just beating the guy that is lying on the ground already (also they might not have realized yet). Same with Ambassadoring/Masquerading Curses, but there at least these cards have some other uses...

[brokoli]

I think the main problem with Saboteur is just that the card isn't a lot of fun.

Meaning: Often the kingdom isn't right for it so Saboteur just wastes a spot that could have been filled by another interesting card, like Fishing Village or Menagerie. When the kingdom is right for it and going for it is justified, it can kill entire decks and this may cause a lot of frustration. Even if it doesn't frustrate a player due to trashing all his good cards, it can frustrate him by prolonging the game for an unbearable amount of time. Waiting for all the Estates, Hamlets and Cellars to clear out is really tedious.

So in essence Saboteur is often either completely skippable or not at all skippable. Now I'm not one to criticize Donald X's genius card designs, but a card that's either a sure pass in 95% of games and a sure gain in 5% of games just isn't any fun to me. Balancing is very tricky, I know that, but Saboteur doesn't cut it for me. If its only purpose is as a noob trap, well, that's only so much fun. Once a new player has tried Saboteur unsuccessfully, he'll be frustrated too: "I thought this was a powerful card! What a crappy card." and every new game that has it it, it just gets vetoed out.

Maybe 95% vs 5% and sure pass vs. sure gain is a bit too "black and white" as I've had fun stopping an opponent's Minion train with a critical Saboteur every once and a while, but to me it's just a waste of a valuable card slot.

I think personally saboteur is a lot of fun, especially because it isn't very strong. I love saboteur, and I think it's one of the most underrated card of the game. There is a lot of situations where it can be useful : with or against cities, with scrying pool, golem, megaturns with large hands, King's court, against alt vp strategies, etc...

And I disagree : saboteur don't slow the game very much. Also, it's useful more than 5% of the time, really (I know I'm not the best player but saboteur is one of the cards I think I know the most).

What is funy is that in my first games on Boardgamearena, I always played saboteur and every time (but once I started on iso, it changed ^^)

[() | (_) ^/]

...

Maybe 95% vs 5% and sure pass vs. sure gain is a bit too "black and white" as I've had fun stopping an opponent's Minion train with a critical Saboteur every once and a while, but to me it's just a waste of a valuable card slot.

I agree that this is too "black and white."  I just finished a game where I was going for a Watchtower-Hamlet-Oasis engine with a Young Witch (Hamlet was Bane).  Outpost support.  It was pretty sweet.  He was going for a Watchtower + Big Money strat with Hamlets thrown in (not for actions, but for +buy/Bane).

It wasn't until several turns in that I realized that his Saboteur was going to destroy me so hard, as many of my components were cheap and I didn't have the luxury to spam silver. I kept at it, though, having to replace YWs, Watchtowers, and my one Gold many times.  Even lost a province.  However, in the end, I split the provs 4-3 and his two Duchies and 4 estates were countered by the 3 curses that I had managed to slip past his Hamlet-banes/Watchtowers (and my own 3 estates).

I really thought that his Sab purchase was a decent one, I just got the draws needed to close the deal.  If anything, I think he should have bought more.

Anyways, all this is to say I think this is a game that fits in that grey area between your 95%-5% "black and white," so I'm glad you included a qualifier there.   

I think Sab still has some interesting dimensions that I haven't yet explored.  I'm not saying it's the deepest card in Dominion or anything, just that it's not totally bland.

In fact, I think your "Sab is not interesting" argument might even apply to Fishing Village!  If you want Villages, it's a no-brainer to buy.  If not, also a no-brainer to not buy.  Rarely is it much of a debate.  Sometimes, but I think in the vast majority not.

[Davio]

Okay, posting a very narrow range of 95% to 5% was likely to spur a lot of "Well, I just played this game with Saboteur and it was pretty useful" here comments and I know that might have been way too narrow, but I was just trying to make a point.

Also, the percentages are loosely based on my own experience and mileage may vary.

A lot of the deck types posted (Scrying Pool, KC/anything, etc.) are already good without Saboteur. And what does Saboteur do in those games? It adds insult to injury. In those games it will hit more often for the guy who already has the better engine and the guy with the better engine is also the one who likely has a better chance of winning outright.

You go from: "Hey, I pulled off my KC-megaturn first, I guess I'm good shape" to "I pulled off my KC-megaturn first AND killed his KC-megaturn"

I wish Councilroom were online so we could rationalize some of this with facts.

I of course agree with you all that there may be more to Saboteur than meets the eye, that can even be said about every card, for me it's just not a lot of fun and I would have liked to see something else in its place.

[HiveMindEmulator]

A lot of the deck types posted (Scrying Pool, KC/anything, etc.) are already good without Saboteur. And what does Saboteur do in those games? It adds insult to injury. In those games it will hit more often for the guy who already has the better engine and the guy with the better engine is also the one who likely has a better chance of winning outright.

It actually can make a big difference here, at least from a strategic point of view. The reason is that without Sab, you may be more inclined to go for VPs sooner, but with Sab, it's more important to build the engine fully to consistently play out the multiple or directed Sab attacks.

[Robz888]

I agree with all the established know-how on Saboteur. Still, whenever I get 4/3, and I see my 5/2 opponent open Saboteur, I usually panic. I'm bound to lose 1 of my 2 nice cards really soon. Yeah, he doesn't get any benefit, blah blah blah. I still don't like it. Maybe it's psychological?

[HiveMindEmulator]

I agree with all the established know-how on Saboteur. Still, whenever I get 4/3, and I see my 5/2 opponent open Saboteur, I usually panic. I'm bound to lose 1 of my 2 nice cards really soon. Yeah, he doesn't get any benefit, blah blah blah. I still don't like it. Maybe it's psychological?

Must be psychological. You have to remember that every time he plays Sab, he is also losing a nice card (in opportunity cost in his buy vs playing a Silver or equivalent). Now in 3+ player, it's a different story. If you get hit by multiple Sabs between turns, you may never get a real deck going...

[DG]

Now in 3+ player, it's a different story. If you get hit by multiple Sabs between turns, you may never get a real deck going...

But neither does anyone else either. Festival+treasure still has an edge on Saboteur+treasure in a 4 player game.