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[ashersky]

One thing to add to the discussion, which it think is good and healthy, is that the mistake was caught before the flip.  As Robz and Galz have mention, the reset was possible, but not required.  Also as pointed out, chairs was actually lynched.

I think what honestly happened was Jimmmmm started off an old vote count when updating.  He had correctly moved walrus's vote the count before.  It was an accident we all make as mods, and there's zero blame there.

What I think it did to the game was create the belief among all players that the game state was "x" when it had become "y."  How you define those states in personal, I guess, but we all play differently depending on how we view our chances.  Chances of winning an argument, chances of being lynch, etc.  Our views were skewed accidentally by the error.

In hindsight with plenty of time to think it over, my preference would have been reset back to the last correct vote count or reset all votes and tack on some extra time to the day and let the players resolve it.

I know jimmmmm and all of us want to play our games out, but I think the ending was the only play after the flip was given.  I relate it to mod killing Xeiron in MC.  It sucked, but had to happen because of the disadvantage in created for scum through breaking a rule.  Ending a game sucks worse, but I think for the integrity of the game, it was the right call.


More importantly, I believe no one here is holding this against Jimmmmm, or has a negative view of him as a mod.  Jimmmmm is a great and thoughtful mod who created an amazing set-up.  We all make vote count errors.  All of us.  It is not an indicator of how good a mod you are.

Thanks for designing the game, and I personally want an auto-in for whenever and whatever your next game may be.

[pingpongsam]

That said, going forward I will personally be wholly reliant on my own counts as mod counts will be considered superflous posts of zero value whatsoever because, essentially, that is exactly what they are if they cannot be considered binding to the gamestate.

People make mistakes! There's no need to treat vote counts as "superfluous".

I'm not saying the moderator supplied vote count is without utility. It is an excellent resource for aligning everyone's individual counts. My mistake was definitely in relying upon the moderator count as reality instead of checking to see if it aligned with my own due diligence.

PPE: Nothing is held against Jimmmmm, he did a great job and I think made the best calls in this unfortunate instance.

[Archetype]

Not to gush, but this mechanic is awesome! It's a little rough around the edges, but I love the idea of not knowing whether scum are hurting themselves by helping Town, or Town just got bad luck and hurting themselves. Creates a prisoner's dilemma-ish situation that is really interesting. Some of the Monsters' powers are a bit too strong/too weak, but overall they looked really fun and interesting. I really liked the mystery element of when the power was blocked for the Troll's power. I also think that the bonus for using a certain amount of dice needs to be changed up (No reason to not use 3 dice, but then again maybe it would've came back to bite us). But overall, I really like this mechanic and would happily join (or help refine!) the next game.

[chairs]

I'd really like to see this game refined a bit and run again, perhaps even becoming a bit of a regular.  The dice add a little randomness, but also some fun "Well... did he?" that I enjoy the element of.

[ashersky]

I'd really like to see this game refined a bit and run again, perhaps even becoming a bit of a regular.  The dice add a little randomness, but also some fun "Well... did he?" that I enjoy the element of.

I feel like the dice game actually encourages more scum hunting, as opposed to a lot of new mechanics that take away from scum hunting.  That's a good thing.

[pingpongsam]

The dice are great. I was hoping to bus chairs D3 by claiming to have copped him N2 thus excusing my low D2 dice play. Such a fun element.

[mail-mi]

I agree that other games with this dice mechanic should be made.

[theorel]

Well, that was unfortunate.

I think I'm going to have to disagree with Galzria here, especially in a RMM game.  There can be unknown roles that impact vote-counts, and vote-counts can be our only interaction with them.  When I argued that Jimmmmm had the wrong target value, and it was in fact correct, is a great example of that sort of situation.  As players with limited information, it shouldn't be our job to make sure that the mod is correct in all things.

My personal opinion on this in games where backtracking is hard (such as mafia, or really any game with hidden info), is that once information is revealed, it is necessary to treat the gamestate as official even if it's wrong.  For mafia this is a bit harder to track (except obviously, lynch flips), but I would say, after some reasonable length of time a vote-count is treated as official.  Whatever that is defined as, it should at least include: "When an official vote count is posted, all previous vote counts are considered official game-states, and are treated as error-free regardless of the actual situation".

Ultimately it's going to be up to the mods, and whatever is deemed the "standard" rule can go into the standard rules, and if changed it should be noted.  I'm happy whatever the standard is, this is infrequent enough as an actual game-changer.  My preference is to give mods all power, because they're the only ones with all info.  Players are free to correct mods when they perceive an error, but the safest bet is just to replace your vote/unvote.  That should be sufficiently effective in 90% of cases.  Mods should be extra careful when lynches are imminent.

[Jorbles]

Oh man, that's too bad, I was incredibly satisfied to see someone I lynched actually flip scum for once. I'm not sure you guys had definitely lost, but it did seem Ash, had me fooled, but if he was vigged it wouldn't have mattered. My biggest scum read was Voltaire, and then PPS and theorel as possible scum afters chairs flipped.

I don't totally understand why the game needed to end, but I guess I'll accept it, and maybe read the mafia QT where the discussion of why it happened seems to be.

[Galzria]

While I see your point there Theorel, and vote manipulation is certainly a legitimate concern, I would still say the onus is on the players to go "Hey, is this accurate? I thought Walrus's vote was on Chairs. How did it get moved?". Especially when considering casting a vote that potentially puts the lynch in question back up to L-1.

I mean, I know that as a player I would certainly want to know beforehand. If the mod corrects the mistake, great. If he doesn't, then I'll assume there's some sort of manipulation going on.

I mean, the most important thing here is for the mods to be extra careful, especially around lynches, and I think we agree there. But I think looking at the flip side shows why, in general, the gamestate must be honored: What if a player hits lynch, but the mod misses a vote and doesn't see it? Then due to this error another player goes on to be lynched? (Example would be if two players were at L-1, one scum and one town. Town gets lynched but the mod misses it, then players have a change of heart (or worse, deadline out) and the scum player gets the axe). I don't think the original gamestate can be ignored because the mod misses the vote, unless he proceeds to a point beyond repair (provided a flip already).

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

[Jorbles]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

And we're both probably tunneling on Voltaire so hard in that universe.

[Jimmmmm]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

And we're both probably tunneling on Voltaire so hard in that universe.

I think faust killed him actually.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

And we're both probably tunneling on Voltaire so hard in that universe.

I think faust killed him actually.

But what about the other timeline where a Terminator was sent back to prevent that??

[Jorbles]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

And we're both probably tunneling on Voltaire so hard in that universe.

I think faust killed him actually.

But what about the other timeline where a Terminator was sent back to prevent that??

Come with me if you want to not get vigged.

[BoxOfDOG]

Crap.. I knew this would happen.

I've been working my butt off for the last few days, and I knew it would end by the time I was done..

[pingpongsam]

Box and Walrus, join RMM11.

[Archetype]

Do it for the children.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Noooooooooooooooo...I've got Game of Thrones starting tomorrow. I'm gonna try playing just one Mafia game and see how that goes.

Not to say it's not tempting.

[EFHW]

I like to think that my time travel lynch caused a parallel universe to branch off, and the game is continuing merrily in that timeline at least.

I'm enjoying your pithy comments, Walrus!