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Author Topic: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$  (Read 3792 times)

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NoMoreFun

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What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« on: November 04, 2012, 03:36:23 am »
0

What would you charge for the following:

1) Action
+1 Card
+$2

2) Action
+2 Cards
+$1

3) Action
+2 Cards
+$2

I'm surprised no cards like that exist yet. I think only Pawn, Trusty Steed and Mercenary can offer both terminal +$ and +card at once.
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Sakako

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 03:47:15 am »
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I'd charge $3 for the first two, and $4 for the third.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 04:03:40 am »
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The funny thing is 3) doesn't strike me as that strong, but +4 cards and +$4 are $6 effects. Seems like a solid $5 card at least.

Options 1) and 2 )would probably be $4 cards IMO, but I'd like to hear some more reasoning. Option 2 would be a decent engine piece while Option 1 would be a great early game card.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 06:58:16 am »
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I'm surprised no cards like that exist yet. I think only Pawn, Trusty Steed and Mercenary can offer both terminal +$ and +card at once.

Donald has explained why he has limited the number of "vanilla" cards.  It's great to have some, but they can be rather boring and with such a small set of prices, publishing vanilla cards significantly reduces the number of other cards which may be published while maintaining "fairness" in pricing.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 07:08:04 am »
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For the second card in particular, I don't see any reason to charge more than $2.  I'm not sure why it should be denied to someone with a 5/2 split and I can't imagine someone wanting to grab lots of these with spare buys.
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Schneau

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 07:22:18 am »
+1

Thing is, 1 and 2 are both almost as strong as Smithy, and are probably great in BM games - in fact, they don't have as much collision problems, so you can buy a few more of them. I'd think they should cost at least $3, if not $4.
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SirPeebles

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 07:34:50 am »
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Thing is, 1 and 2 are both almost as strong as Smithy, and are probably great in BM games - in fact, they don't have as much collision problems, so you can buy a few more of them. I'd think they should cost at least $3, if not $4.

For BM+X, I suppose you could think of each as a Smithy where you are guaranteed to draw at least 2 Coppers, 1 Copper, or 1 Silver respectively.  It doesn't provide as much cycling, but has lower risk of collision.  I don't think I have enough experience with Big Money to judge.

Edit:  I'm still skeptical of the first two, but I'm more convinced that number 3 would be great in Big Money.  Drawing a Silver is always welcome, but another advantage of this card is that buying it is like buying a Smithy and Silver at the same time, plus guaranteeing they will appear together, helping you get the spikes you need to reach $8.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:38:27 am by SirPeebles »
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Tables

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 07:50:47 am »
+2

1) and 2) are both comfortably $4 cards. 3) Is easily a $6.

1 and 2 are exactly as Schneau says, basically better than Smithy for Big Money, and terminal money is often good in many engines. One notable thing about them is that they're less likely to miss reshuffles than Smithy, and less likely to collide, so you can comfortably grab them a little sooner. In addition, note that Action2/Silver has a 5/6 chance of being played without missing the 2nd reshuffle, while Smithy/Silver is a much lower 5/12, AND at that point in the game your average treasure density is <$1, so it also provides slightly more money on average. Same argument holds for Action1.

3 is a card that everyone and their mum has concocted at some point, and the general consensus has always been that it's too good as a $5, and balanced, but boring, at $6. The reason is that it provides two very strong BM type effects - in BM, +2 cards is pretty much just extra money, so this is a terminal providing probably an average of +$4. Note that it's providing probably a better average amount than Adventurer, probably a good +$1 over Harvest and more over Counting House, all $5's. In an engine, it's alright, it manages to be a bit kind of everywhere, giving you a little draw (but you want more) and a little terminal money, so if you have excess actions, it's better than Gold almost certainly.

Donald has in fact addressed all three of these cards before. He considered 1 and 2 to look 'wonky' and not be that exciting, and 3 I believe was playtested at $5, bumped up to $6, and then dropped for being boring.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

One Armed Man

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 09:53:05 am »
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Davio

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 12:22:50 pm »
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The first is more a $3 than a $4 I think.

Opening with two of these is comparable to opening double Silver, but a little better.
It's just that you don't really want a lot of terminals, so they won't be used in engines that much or BM+a couple of terminals. If they're only good in BM, then they're easily beaten by any kind of engine anyways.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 02:32:53 pm »
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If they're only good in BM, then they're easily beaten by any kind of engine anyways.

This is a pretty broad statement. There are plenty of engines that lose to Monument/Militia/Jack/Envoy Big Money.
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Cuzz

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2012, 05:46:12 pm »
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I can't see #2 being worth more than $3. Is +$1 really much better than the secondary effect of Oracle or even Moat?
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Tables

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2012, 07:17:03 pm »
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Yes. +$1 is the difference between a $3 and a $6 card. It probably compares reasonably with Oracle, on average, but to put it another way, is +1 card really better than the secondary effect of Oracle? Anyway comparing directly to Oracle, considering there's maybe a 40-50% chance you don't want to discard (<50% as cycling is usually good), and similarly 50-60% chance you don't want to discard your opponent's stuff, and even when you do discard, it's probably going to average out as less than a +$1/-$1 benefit maybe? So... that's pretty comparable, slightly better maybe, and Oracle is a good $3. Of course this is a pretty silly comparison in a way, but... I can see it being okay at $3, because it has less engine potential than Smithy, maybe?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

NoMoreFun

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2012, 09:29:42 pm »
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I'm surprised no cards like that exist yet. I think only Pawn, Trusty Steed and Mercenary can offer both terminal +$ and +card at once.

Donald has explained why he has limited the number of "vanilla" cards.  It's great to have some, but they can be rather boring and with such a small set of prices, publishing vanilla cards significantly reduces the number of other cards which may be published while maintaining "fairness" in pricing.

I am aiming to use the ideas as top halves for cards with unique reactions, when gain effects etc. for fan cards.

What would +3 cards, +$1 be? Seems like a 5, when you compare it to Margrave and Torturer.
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Davio

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 05:05:03 am »
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If they're only good in BM, then they're easily beaten by any kind of engine anyways.

This is a pretty broad statement. There are plenty of engines that lose to Monument/Militia/Jack/Envoy Big Money.
You're talking about BM+X where X is a pretty powerful card, I was talking specifically about basic BM+#1.

What I mean is: If you're going with a BM+X that can go head to head with some kind of engine, you can't really add a lot of #1's, because you can only support so much terminals. This means you can only use #1 in a very basic BM-style deck with not much other terminals. And this type of BM-deck it will be used in is going to be rather weak and thus easily beaten by some kind of decent engine.

Conclusion: #1 is such a weak BM-enabler that it's going to be trumped by more powerful cards and won't be gained that often, because you want those power cards and not these "silver+-ish terminals". So when WILL you gain it? Engines with a gazillion actions. I mean, I can see it being used in a Scrying Pool engine, sure.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: What would you charge for: Simple terminal cards+$
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 10:13:15 am »
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Is BM + #1 significantly weaker than BM + Monument? I mean, I'd be surprised if it was _stronger_, but it doesn't seem much weaker just at a glance.
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