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[werothegreat]

Was looking at Ironmonger, and was wondering how to make Curses useful for it.  Here goes.


Iron Maiden
Action-Attack - $5

Each other player gains a Curse.
Reveal the top card of your deck; discard it or put it back.  Either way, if it is a(n)...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +$1
Victory Card, +1 Card
Curse, +1 Buy
Shelter, you may trash it or a card in your hand.

FAQ: If you reveal Overgrown Estate, trash a card before drawing a card.  If you trash Overgrown Estate, you will draw two cards.

[ChocophileBenj]

For a name, I prefer Red Hot Chili Peppers or Scorpions ^^

Anyway, besides the cursing, it is far too weak having a so little bonus you don't even control

[NoMoreFun]

A perfect name if there ever was one

1) Resembles "Sea Hag"
2) Gets the "iron"
3) An Iron Maiden is a medieval torture device, so it makes sense to be an attack

My idea for that name:

Iron Maiden:
Cost: 5
Action/Attack
+1 Action
Each other player draws a card, then discards down to 3 cards in hand. The player to your left reveals his discarded cards.
For each revealed
Action Card: +1 action
Treasure Card: +$1
Victory Card: +1 card

It's a margrave that discourages discarding victory cards. Gets very weak after the first use, which is extremely strong. Probably combos too well with Council Room and Governor.

[werothegreat]

My thought was: if it does something with Curses, there should be a way to easily get Curses into your deck to make use of them, but no one wants Curses, so it's a Curser.

[SirPeebles]

I don't like that the FAQ tells you to break the usual order.  Rules changes don't belong in the FAQ.  It would be better to list the Shelter type before the Victory type if you want the trashing to occur before drawing.  Personally, I would prefer simply not having an effect for Shelter or Curse type.

[Kirian]

Iron Maiden?



Excellent!

[TWoos]

I don't like that the FAQ tells you to break the usual order.  Rules changes don't belong in the FAQ.  It would be better to list the Shelter type before the Victory type if you want the trashing to occur before drawing.  Personally, I would prefer simply not having an effect for Shelter or Curse type.

I also disagree with the FAQ mandating an order, but for a different reason.

I know you do cards in order, but wouldn't this be simultaneous events that you choose the order of?  I don't think listing one card type before another matters.

 

[GendoIkari]

I don't like that the FAQ tells you to break the usual order.  Rules changes don't belong in the FAQ.  It would be better to list the Shelter type before the Victory type if you want the trashing to occur before drawing.  Personally, I would prefer simply not having an effect for Shelter or Curse type.

I also disagree with the FAQ mandating an order, but for a different reason.

I know you do cards in order, but wouldn't this be simultaneous events that you choose the order of?  I don't think listing one card type before another matters.

No, you do have to do them in order. I believe this is clarified on the Trusty Steed rules. You can't move your deck into your discard pile and THEN draw 2 cards.

*Edit*

Here's a thread about it. Interestingly enough, Pawn rules clarify that you can do either choice in either order (even though with the Pawn choices it never makes any different what order you choose). Donald says he wishes they were consistant, but too late now!

[TWoos]

I don't like that the FAQ tells you to break the usual order.  Rules changes don't belong in the FAQ.  It would be better to list the Shelter type before the Victory type if you want the trashing to occur before drawing.  Personally, I would prefer simply not having an effect for Shelter or Curse type.

I also disagree with the FAQ mandating an order, but for a different reason.

I know you do cards in order, but wouldn't this be simultaneous events that you choose the order of?  I don't think listing one card type before another matters.

No, you do have to do them in order. I believe this is clarified on the Trusty Steed rules. You can't move your deck into your discard pile and THEN draw 2 cards.

*Edit*

Here's a thread about it. Interestingly enough, Pawn rules clarify that you can do either choice in either order (even though with the Pawn choices it never makes any different what order you choose). Donald says he wishes they were consistant, but too late now!

So there's no precedent here.  Any card for which it might matter (and on that subject, I looked through all the cards that are similar and there were none (other than Trusty Steed) for which it mattered) would have to specify which method it used.

Pawn, for example, doesn't matter.  +1 action, +1 buy, +1$ are all future potential.  +1 card is the only do-it-now.  Actually, Pawn and Trusty Steed are the only two that I could find that even have a 'choose two'.


All of which is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  Iron Maiden is /not/ a 'choose two'.  It's a 'If this type...'.  I wouldn't automatically apply a ruling from one style of verbiage to another style of verbiage.  Key word there is automatically, of course. 

I would look at something like Tribute, which deals with multiple cards, to find out if there's a specific order that should be applied.  The rules are silent on this point.  But again...  there's no reason to say anything.  The order in which bonuses can be taken cannot possibly matter.

[SirPeebles]

All of which is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  Iron Maiden is /not/ a 'choose two'.  It's a 'If this type...'.  I wouldn't automatically apply a ruling from one style of verbiage to another style of verbiage.  Key word there is automatically, of course. 

I would look at something like Tribute, which deals with multiple cards, to find out if there's a specific order that should be applied.  The rules are silent on this point.  But again...  there's no reason to say anything.  The order in which bonuses can be taken cannot possibly matter.

How about Transmute?  Let's say I have Village, Transmute, Great Hall, Watchtower, and Upgrade in my hand.

I play a Village, and draw a Gold.  I Transmute my Great Hall.  What I would *like* to do is, using my Watchtower, first top-deck the Gold and *then* top-deck the Duchy.  That way, I can play Upgrade, draw my Duchy and upgrade it into a Fairgrounds and then play my Watchtower, drawing the Gold I need to buy the final Fairgrounds and clinch the game.  However, if I need to follow the card text, then I need to gain the Duchy before gaining the Gold, and I can't guarantee snatching the final two Fairgrounds.

Edit:  I originally Transmuted Harem, but that's the wrong dual type.  Great Hall works though.

[GendoIkari]

I don't like that the FAQ tells you to break the usual order.  Rules changes don't belong in the FAQ.  It would be better to list the Shelter type before the Victory type if you want the trashing to occur before drawing.  Personally, I would prefer simply not having an effect for Shelter or Curse type.

I also disagree with the FAQ mandating an order, but for a different reason.

I know you do cards in order, but wouldn't this be simultaneous events that you choose the order of?  I don't think listing one card type before another matters.

No, you do have to do them in order. I believe this is clarified on the Trusty Steed rules. You can't move your deck into your discard pile and THEN draw 2 cards.

*Edit*

Here's a thread about it. Interestingly enough, Pawn rules clarify that you can do either choice in either order (even though with the Pawn choices it never makes any different what order you choose). Donald says he wishes they were consistant, but too late now!

So there's no precedent here.  Any card for which it might matter (and on that subject, I looked through all the cards that are similar and there were none (other than Trusty Steed) for which it mattered) would have to specify which method it used.

Pawn, for example, doesn't matter.  +1 action, +1 buy, +1$ are all future potential.  +1 card is the only do-it-now.  Actually, Pawn and Trusty Steed are the only two that I could find that even have a 'choose two'.


All of which is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  Iron Maiden is /not/ a 'choose two'.  It's a 'If this type...'.  I wouldn't automatically apply a ruling from one style of verbiage to another style of verbiage.  Key word there is automatically, of course. 

I would look at something like Tribute, which deals with multiple cards, to find out if there's a specific order that should be applied.  The rules are silent on this point.  But again...  there's no reason to say anything.  The order in which bonuses can be taken cannot possibly matter.

I think Trusty Steed is a precedent. You must do the things in the order they are printed on the card. This is just a more specific case of the general rule in Dominion: "Do everything on the card, in the order it is on the card."

 

[GendoIkari]

All of which is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  Iron Maiden is /not/ a 'choose two'.  It's a 'If this type...'.  I wouldn't automatically apply a ruling from one style of verbiage to another style of verbiage.  Key word there is automatically, of course. 

I would look at something like Tribute, which deals with multiple cards, to find out if there's a specific order that should be applied.  The rules are silent on this point.  But again...  there's no reason to say anything.  The order in which bonuses can be taken cannot possibly matter.

How about Transmute?  Let's say I have Village, Transmute, Great Hall, Watchtower, and Upgrade in my hand.

I play a Village, and draw a Gold.  I Transmute my Great Hall.  What I would *like* to do is, using my Watchtower, first top-deck the Gold and *then* top-deck the Duchy.  That way, I can play Upgrade, draw my Duchy and upgrade it into a Fairgrounds and then play my Watchtower, drawing the Gold I need to buy the final Fairgrounds and clinch the game.  However, if I need to follow the card text, then I need to gain the Duchy before gaining the Gold, and I can't guarantee snatching the final two Fairgrounds.

Edit:  I originally Transmuted Harem, but that's the wrong dual type.  Great Hall works though.

This is correct, by my understanding. You are not allowed to gain the Gold before gaining the Duchy.

[TWoos]

All of which is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  Iron Maiden is /not/ a 'choose two'.  It's a 'If this type...'.  I wouldn't automatically apply a ruling from one style of verbiage to another style of verbiage.  Key word there is automatically, of course. 

I would look at something like Tribute, which deals with multiple cards, to find out if there's a specific order that should be applied.  The rules are silent on this point.  But again...  there's no reason to say anything.  The order in which bonuses can be taken cannot possibly matter.

How about Transmute?  Let's say I have Village, Transmute, Great Hall, Watchtower, and Upgrade in my hand.

I play a Village, and draw a Gold.  I Transmute my Great Hall.  What I would *like* to do is, using my Watchtower, first top-deck the Gold and *then* top-deck the Duchy.  That way, I can play Upgrade, draw my Duchy and upgrade it into a Fairgrounds and then play my Watchtower, drawing the Gold I need to buy the final Fairgrounds and clinch the game.  However, if I need to follow the card text, then I need to gain the Duchy before gaining the Gold, and I can't guarantee snatching the final two Fairgrounds.

Edit:  I originally Transmuted Harem, but that's the wrong dual type.  Great Hall works though.

That's the most perfect example possible.  I'm baffled how I missed Transmute.

And I would argue, barring a ruling from on high, that the rules for Trusty Steed does not necessarily apply here.  My reasoning is just that Great Hall is both types at the same time.  Not one, then the other.  That's simultaneous.


If your argument hinges on the fact that Pawn was from Intrigue, and Trusty Steed is from Cornucopia, thus the latter rule should take precedence, well, that is a pretty good reason, actually.  I just don't happen to consider it reason enough.

[Archetype]

You guys. The card.

[Archetype]

Iron Maiden
Action-Attack - $5

Each other player gains a Curse.
Reveal the top card of your deck; discard it or put it back.  Either way, if it is a(n)...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +$1
Victory Card, +1 Card
Curse, +1 Buy
Shelter, you may trash it or a card in your hand.

Would remove the 'or a card from your hand' from the Shelter part. It feels tacked on. Other bonuses seem spot-on.

The card is definitely balanced. Being weaker than other cursers, but having lots of flexibility. I really like it, and would probably by it over Witch. Though maybe it's just because of my love of flexibility that Ironmonger offers.

Cool name. Thought it was going to be some heavy-rocker card when I first saw the thread title.