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[Dsell]

I know in voting Dsell, but to be fair the case against him is such that he cant really defend himself any other way.

Would you say you are sheeping Robz?

At least partially, for sure. Agreeing with his analysis is maybe more accurate.

Ok. And this is the main post that you're agreeing based on?

So I actually have a mild scum read on Dsell.

It looks to me like he's really trying to be "Mr. Helpful." He's doing a fair amount of leading the town, for one thing. A couple pages back he was defending someone, I can't remember who, but I think it might have been cayvie, and it just felt fake to me.

Also, on the last page, he agreed with Eevee calling Joth his major scumread, but then Eevee clarified that he made a mistype, and Joth was actually his major townread (which I sort of agree with, fwiw). I think this might have just been unlucky for Dsell, but if someone jumps on a case that then turns out be a mistype, well, that doesn't reflect well on the jumper.

I don't know. This is far from rock solid. It's little more than a hunch I guess. But in a game where almost nothing has stood out to me, I'm definitely getting a bad vibe from exactly one player.

So, Vote: Dsell, actually.

So leading the town. I addressed that here:

I think I explained that, clearly. There's usually plenty of other activity that I don't need to be the leader. Here, we have just 12 pages a couple days from the deadline (and the original deadline was earlier!). That's hardly enough info to get good reads. I'm trying to create discussion because a lot of the typical discussion leaders just aren't. I think the setclaim, while probably a fine pursuit for scumhunting on later days, has really slowed us down today. Nothing is happening, and how are we supposed to develop reads when nothing is happening? So I try to make things happen and foster discussion. I'm apparently not cut out for it.

And also a bit more in another post. I addressed the "Jo is my major scumread" argument here:

I never called him anything like my "major scumread." I had a problem with two of his posts. I thought one of them was rolefishy (asking the person on his left or right to reveal somehow what they'd play) and another used frightfully a frightfully bad argument. Jo kinda clarified his rolefish-looking post in a way that makes some sense for this game, though I've never heard of a role like it. I stand by what I said and I'm confused by the town reads on Jo, unless it's just because Jo has said some fairly scummy stuff as town before.

That post is a little outdated now; I find him scummy for more than just that. His insistence on my case despite how bad it is contributes to his scumminess now.

And that is literally all the content there is to the case. And Robz completely knows this:

Oh, it's extremely nebulous.

By the way, this is the worst case I've ever made against anyone, ever.

Well, sure, you're exactly right. I've just got this hunch, man.

He's distancing himself from my mislynch so much. I'm actually finding it tough to find him scummy for making this case...it's SO bad...but I don't see how people are following this and buying into it. So everyone who is agreeing with this non-case looks bad to me. It's not even analysis. He's finding me scummy for being more active than usual (but it's not a meta argument...) when I'm just trying to get this town to talk.

Well, we're talking but we are going completely in the wrong direction.

[Eevee]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

[Robz888]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

Bwaahh?

[Dsell]

Dsell, to be honest, I didn't at all find the original case on you all that compelling. I'm rather surprised it gained steam so quickly and easily.

However you're making a TON of self-meta arguments, which of course always read scummy trying to point to "But I'm not like this as scum". Working for you here though, is that I probably do this FAR more than any other player, and I'm almost always town when I do. Doesn't ever save me from suspicion, and I often get lynched over it, but still. Doesn't read well in general, weather you're town OR scum.

hmmmm

galz-dsell scumteam?

this reads like coaching to me

What. Ok, let's pretend that there was a Galz-Dsell scumteam. Galz, the quintessential town leader, decides to have his scummate, Dsell, (who usually is a medium poster) lead the town. And when Dsell gets himself in a little trouble, Galz does some coaching to help Dsell (who's a total noob at playing scum) out. We are doing all this instead of playing how we often do as scum, even though these tactics have both won us multiple games as scum. Yeah that's probably what's going on here.

Cayvie, I hope you are being sarcastic because I thought your BS sensor was better than this.

[Galzria]

I'll say this:

If Cayvie and/or Robz are town, they are going up for awards this year as "worst town play in a Mafia game". They're honestly sitting there thinking that the two most active players in this thread - the two that, without whom this thread would be going nowhere, are sitting there openly coaching each other as scum buddies about how not to appear too suspicious.

A) Do you know what crappy scum play that would be? I'm honestly completely insulted that you think that I, as scum, would give a damn about my scummate on D1 - or that I would care SO much about protecting him that I would go out of my way to "coach" him on not getting himself lynched.

B) Absolutely classic reason why scum so very, very rarely get lynched D1 on f.DS - Because they can just sit back and not say a damn thing, not lead the town, or offer thoughts or suggestions, and for those that DO speak up - OH MAI GOD THEY SO SCUMMY!

C) You're both ridiculous. I can't speak for Dsell's alignment, but honestly the case on him is complete crap - and I'm highly suspect of those who 1) Made it, and 2) Sheeped it.

D) See points A-C, and welcome yourself to confirmation bias.

[Dsell]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

This is THE reason that I was trying to make discussion happen. But PLEASE do not settle for a bad lynch that you know is bad.

[Eevee]

Your insistence on defending yourself does read towny to me.. big posts with a lot of quotes always do though. :/ I don't know, I'm not so hot on a nolynch and we have no alternative wagons. I probably shouldn't contribute to your lynch though so that I can suspect myself tomorrow after you've flipped town.. Dunno! My reads are so nonexistent here. So so nonexistent. Your recent behavior does seem towny, but I'm told you know how to appear towny as scum too.

Bwaahh?

As I said, Dsell's defenses read towny to me. However, the alternative seems to be nolynch. But, the benefits of a lynch I'm not so hot about compared to a nolynch are in the information from the wagon. Well, if other people keep their vote on Dsell "for informational lynches / to make a lynch happen" which would describe my feelings about it pretty accurately, there isn't really much information at all on the lynch. So, meh.

[Eevee]

Unvote I guess.

[Robz888]

I'll say this:

If Cayvie and/or Robz are town, they are going up for awards this year as "worst town play in a Mafia game". They're honestly sitting there thinking that the two most active players in this thread - the two that, without whom this thread would be going nowhere, are sitting there openly coaching each other as scum buddies about how not to appear too suspicious.

A) Do you know what crappy scum play that would be? I'm honestly completely insulted that you think that I, as scum, would give a damn about my scummate on D1 - or that I would care SO much about protecting him that I would go out of my way to "coach" him on not getting himself lynched.

B) Absolutely classic reason why scum so very, very rarely get lynched D1 on f.DS - Because they can just sit back and not say a damn thing, not lead the town, or offer thoughts or suggestions, and for those that DO speak up - OH MAI GOD THEY SO SCUMMY!

C) You're both ridiculous. I can't speak for Dsell's alignment, but honestly the case on him is complete crap - and I'm highly suspect of those who 1) Made it, and 2) Sheeped it.

D) See points A-C, and welcome yourself to confirmation bias.

The only award I was after was "Worst Case Made Against a Player That Does Not Result in the Case-Maker Getting Suspected". But your OMGUS ruined that. Thanks.

[Dsell]

So we have the worst case ever made, and a lot of people jumped on board, either with thin reasoning or no reasoning.

I'd be willing to vote for: Cayvie, Jotheonah, Ashersky, and maybe Eevee.

[jotheonah]

Robz, I know you like to mix your play up purely for the sake of mixing your play up. And I know you're probably running out of new approaches after all these games. But I'm not going to give you a free pass for self-aware badness. If you think your case is bad, don't make it.

I happen to think my case on Dsell is pretty decent. I can't remember ever having a scumread on Dsell before, and now I do. That must mean something.

[jotheonah]

Archetype, MOAR setup questions: Does the scum who makes the kill also play a card?

[Archetype]

Archetype, MOAR setup questions: Does the scum who makes the kill also play a card?

Yes.

[Robz888]

Robz, I know you like to mix your play up purely for the sake of mixing your play up. And I know you're probably running out of new approaches after all these games. But I'm not going to give you a free pass for self-aware badness. If you think your case is bad, don't make it.

I happen to think my case on Dsell is pretty decent. I can't remember ever having a scumread on Dsell before, and now I do. That must mean something.

I think it's poorly-supported, impossible to argue against (which is not actually a good thing), and punishes one of the most productive people currently in the game.

But it's still better than no case, and I'm standing behind it.

[jotheonah]

Idk about you, RObz, but I said earlier that I would support No Lynch unless I had a rock solid scum read. And nobody can call this a rock solid scumread. So why not go back to no lynch?

[Dsell]

I'd also be willing to lynch Morgrim, who has a total of 2 in-game posts.

[Robz888]

Both of those are also okay ideas. I don't know.

[Robz888]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

[Eevee]

Vote: morgrim7

[Galzria]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

I already know how I'm using my cards, personally - as I've already made clear - I'll be playing a DA card.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.3:

Dsell (3) -- Robz888, ashersky, jotheonah
cayvie (2) -- pingpongsam, Young Nick,
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Qvist,
Morgrim7 (2) -- Galzria, Eevee
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie

Not Voting (3) -- Dsell, Morgrim7, Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 lynch deadline is Saturday, November 24th, at 1:00 AM forum time.

[jotheonah]

BUT, if we lynch Dsell... I will have a better idea of how to use my cards. I assume the same is true for the rest of you.

I have a card for every occasion.

[Eevee]

I'll play the same card whatever happens today.

[Dsell]

Morgrim said that his bastard game was on hold until after Thanksgiving, so Morgrim might be back one day before the deadline, on Friday. So we probably shouldn't lynch him before that, but I am very very ok with lynching lurking Morgrim.

Vote: Morgrim

[Young Nick]

I think there is an informational benefit to a Dsell lynch too, at this point. If Dsell flips town, let's take a look at who got on the wagon real easy like. If he flips scum, let's quick lynch everybody who defended him even slightly.

This...this doesn't work too well. To me, it started off of a miss-post, and Eevee's (I think it was Eevee's) correction looked quite sarcastic. This lynch isn't one built on strong reads, but of people grossly overreacting. And that is why people have been distancing themselves from their votes on Dsell, because no one (except ashersky, I guess) care enough about lynching Dsell to take the associated heat if he turns up town.

The hedging made ("This is the crappiest case I've ever made") will make it quite difficult to actually lynch the voters, as they will refer to it.

And people who defended him getting quick-lynched? When the case on him is so petty? That's even worse than my vote on Cayvie.

I am most suspicious of Robz for his hedging and this post, but for now I will go for Vote: No Lynch.