Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: "You think too much"  (Read 11476 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Axxle

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
  • Most Valuable Serial Killer
  • Respect: +1965
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2012, 09:23:25 pm »
0

Related: a pet peeve of mind is when someone believes that competitiveness and leisure are mutually exclusive.

I think there's a perception that competitiveness and friendliness are mutually exclusive. With the people I play regularly with IRL, it's a mixture: We crow a bit when we win, but it's more like a group effort to figure out the best strategy; if someone does something that just doesn't make any sense because they forgot something, we just tell them to take it back, since we'd rather have them play their best. But we are also playing to win and actively trying to figure out the best strategy, even as we talk about it during the game. It's makes it more like a collaborative problem than petty "competition," but I don't think most people would understand the difference.
I'm usually the only one who does this in my groups.  Most don't mind it but it causes me to lose many more games than I normally would.

I like thinking that they won because of me though.  So I secretly count it as a win :D
Logged
We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

Saucery

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Respect: +82
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2012, 07:54:33 am »
0

As a board gamer, do you find yourself accused of thinking too much? Well, "accuse" is a strong word, but I guess "called out" might be appropriate.

My co-workers at lunch have expressed an interest in playing games. Knowing they weren't hardcore gamers, I brought Blokus and Gobblet. I introduced a form of Hanabi. This gets interesting looks from other people in the cafeteria, and one woman that we know even looked at the strange way we were holding our cards in Hanabi and said, "You guys think too much for lunch."

Sadly, this isn't the first time I've heard such a thing. I have a hobby that stimulates my mind. I love thinking tactically. I love solving problems. When I relax, I'm usually not doing nothing.

Even among my game-playing lunch crowd, I'll hear someone say, "Count me out for this one. I'm not in the mood to think." I always found that statement weird.

I mean, I'll sometimes not be in the mood for a game, but I would always say, "I'm not in the mood to play," instead of "I'm not in the mood to think." I'm always in the mood to think.

I guess I'm an oddball in that I don't consider thinking to be a bad thing. I suspect there are a lot of you who feel the same way.
If you're getting called out for something like that, it basically means that they wouldn't enjoy or feel relaxed doing the same, and don't understand or appreciate that you do. Not that boardgames don't take brainpower, but sometimes focusing on something you find fun is relaxing and can actually energize you.

It's quite a silly thing when people want others to stop doing or liking things that they wouldn't do or like. Happens all the goddamn time though.
Logged

pingpongsam

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1760
  • Shuffle iT Username: pingpongsam
  • Respect: +777
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 09:45:42 am »
+1

Show of hands; how many here with desk jobs play isotropic  at some point durinng the work day?  Case in point..meet the choir.
Logged
You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.

TwiNight

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 85
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 12:10:55 pm »
0

I consider "love to think" is something of a personal trait.

And, I guess someone who even bothered to search for Dominion strategy on the Internet is that kind of person.
Logged

Captain_Frisk

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
  • Respect: +1263
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2012, 04:35:32 pm »
+1

I have some friends and co-workers who said that "using my brain is hard enough at work, why should I use it off work." That came true when I took out Ticket to Ride for a gathering and some of my friends were initially resistant because it looked like they had to think a lot.

And from what I hear, TtR is a pretty light game. SIgh.

TtR is a light game... unless you're playing competitively - memorizing what color cards each person has drawn, memorizing the available route cards, etc. etc.

I played 1 game with someone who plays that way (he even has a system for recording # of colors a player has by orienting his trains a certain way).  Never wanted to play again after that.
Logged
I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

cayvie

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • old
  • Respect: +235
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 05:49:19 pm »
0

TtR, at least the basic game, is awfully unrewarding to strategic play, inasmuch as winning correlates very heavily to who draws what route cards at the start
Logged
18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

she/her

Captain_Frisk

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
  • Respect: +1263
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 06:24:09 pm »
0

TtR, at least the basic game, is awfully unrewarding to strategic play, inasmuch as winning correlates very heavily to who draws what route cards at the start

Any more than dominion and shuffle luck?  Even the best dominion players have a tough time getting over 65% wins.
Logged
I support funsockets.... taking as much time as they need to get it right.

SwitchedFromStarcraft

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1088
  • Respect: +856
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 06:28:17 pm »
0

TtR, at least the basic game, is awfully unrewarding to strategic play, inasmuch as winning correlates very heavily to who draws what route cards at the start

Any more than dominion and shuffle luck?  Even the best dominion players have a tough time getting over 65% wins.
Whoa.  Is this statistic (the 65% thing) true?  I know CR has been down for a while or we could just check, but was this number substantiated with data from CR?
Logged
Quote from: Donald X.
Posting begets posting.

Quote from: Asper
Donald X made me a design snob.

There is a sucker born every minute.

ednever

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 650
  • Respect: +722
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 08:15:24 pm »
0


CR stats on this are meaningless since people tend to play people at a similar level.

I'll bet if Marin or Obi or WW or Rabid or anyb of those in the top 30 played level 15s their win rate would be 80%+. In Colony games it would be 90%.

Ed
Logged

SwitchedFromStarcraft

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1088
  • Respect: +856
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 08:28:43 pm »
0


CR stats on this are meaningless since people tend to play people at a similar level.

I'll bet if Marin or Obi or WW or Rabid or anyb of those in the top 30 played level 15s their win rate would be 80%+. In Colony games it would be 90%.

Ed
Good point, and your hypothetical involves high 40's playing 15s (48 - 15 = 33).  What do you suppose (a guess is fine) the win rate would be when 15s play 1s or zeroes?  Smaller gap (15 - 0 = 15) between levels, but the gameskills for a 15 are much less developed than for a 48, I should think.  Any thoughts?
Logged
Quote from: Donald X.
Posting begets posting.

Quote from: Asper
Donald X made me a design snob.

There is a sucker born every minute.

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 10:17:15 pm »
+1


CR stats on this are meaningless since people tend to play people at a similar level.

I'll bet if Marin or Obi or WW or Rabid or anyb of those in the top 30 played level 15s their win rate would be 80%+. In Colony games it would be 90%.

Ed
Good point, and your hypothetical involves high 40's playing 15s (48 - 15 = 33).  What do you suppose (a guess is fine) the win rate would be when 15s play 1s or zeroes?  Smaller gap (15 - 0 = 15) between levels, but the gameskills for a 15 are much less developed than for a 48, I should think.  Any thoughts?

Well we can use the math behind trueskill to estimate the winning chance. I looked and found that the beta parameter is defined as the skill difference at which the stronger player wins 80% of the time. Generalizing that, the chance to win would be 4^(skilldiff/beta)/(4^skilldiff/beta+1). This is a little overly simplistic, I think, because it ignores the draw chance and uncertainty parameter. But whatever. Beta for isotropic is set to 25.

So if a 48 plays a 15, you'd expect a win rate of 86.2%. For a 15 vs a 0, you'd expect a win rate of 69.7%

EDIT: I found a better resource for trueskill here http://jmlr.csail.mit.edu/papers/volume12/weng11a/weng11a.pdf

They say that the cumulative distribution function follows a logistic distribution of the funtion (skilldiff/(sqrt(1/2)*beta), assuming beta is the same for both players, which it is here. The CDF is then 1/(1+exp(skilldiff*sqrt(2)/beta)) which looks like this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+1%2F%281%2Bexp%28-x%2F%2825%2F1.41%29%29%29+from+-50+to+50

So for 48 vs 15, you get a 86.54% and 15 vs 0 is 69.97%, which is pretty close to my previous estimation.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 10:43:40 pm by jonts26 »
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2012, 10:53:28 pm »
0

Actually this brings up an interesting point. We have tons and tons of game data. Certainly enough to have strong statistical significance. Could we use that to create a better estimation for the beta parameter? Or actually we could use multiple beta parameters for various mean skill levels? We'd need winning percentage statistics for various mean skill levels playing various other mean skill levels.
Logged

Synthesizer

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2012, 05:59:34 am »
0


CR stats on this are meaningless since people tend to play people at a similar level.

I'll bet if Marin or Obi or WW or Rabid or anyb of those in the top 30 played level 15s their win rate would be 80%+. In Colony games it would be 90%.

Ed

Good TTR players will beat you, or me, in these percentages as well. Regardless of initial ticket draws.
Bad initial ticket draws compare to 5/2 vs. 4/3 openings in a Dominion game with Witch: it is a definite disadvantage; and it will likely make you lose against a player of similar level, but nothing you can't overcome if you are clearly a better player.
Logged

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: "You think too much"
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2012, 07:25:09 pm »
0

Well we can use the math behind trueskill to estimate the winning chance. I looked and found that the beta parameter is defined as the skill difference at which the stronger player wins 80% of the time. Generalizing that, the chance to win would be 4^(skilldiff/beta)/(4^skilldiff/beta+1). This is a little overly simplistic, I think, because it ignores the draw chance and uncertainty parameter. But whatever. Beta for isotropic is set to 25.

So if a 48 plays a 15, you'd expect a win rate of 86.2%. For a 15 vs a 0, you'd expect a win rate of 69.7%

EDIT: I found a better resource for trueskill here http://jmlr.csail.mit.edu/papers/volume12/weng11a/weng11a.pdf

They say that the cumulative distribution function follows a logistic distribution of the funtion (skilldiff/(sqrt(1/2)*beta), assuming beta is the same for both players, which it is here. The CDF is then 1/(1+exp(skilldiff*sqrt(2)/beta)) which looks like this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+1%2F%281%2Bexp%28-x%2F%2825%2F1.41%29%29%29+from+-50+to+50

So for 48 vs 15, you get a 86.54% and 15 vs 0 is 69.97%, which is pretty close to my previous estimation.
Deconstructing the ranking scheme for a card game to work out the chance of winning? Dude, you think too much.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.096 seconds with 21 queries.