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[Insomniac]

I disagree that laboratory is a cantrip it more than replaces itself

[kilgoretrout103]

Prosperity
"This is the 4th addition to the game of Dominion. It adds 25 new Kingdom cards to Dominion, plus 2 new Basic cards that let players keep building up past Gold and Province. "

(emphasis added)

IMHO, this is the best textual evidence that Ruins are Basic cards, as it shows that cards need not be used in every game to be considered Basic. Absent that feature, Ruins are no different from Curses. As such, if Curses are Basic, Ruins should be, too.

[ConMan]

I'd definitely agree that Ruins are Basic cards, but would probably argue that Spoils Shelters aren't, based on one possible reading of how the cards in any given game are split:
1. Kingdom Supply Cards
2. Cards not in the Supply
3. Basic Supply Cards, i.e. everything else

Then 2 captures the 10 (11 with Bane) Supply piles that make up this particular game, while 1 covers Tournament Prizes, Spoils, Shelters, Black Market Deck, and 3 includes everything in the "Base Cards" set plus the few piles of special buyable cards that could be added to the game depending on what the Kingdom is - including Ruins, Potions, Platinums and Colonies.

[DStu]

And the same applies to Hamlet, Upgrade, Laboratory, and so on.

I wouldn't include Upgrade, as mandatory trashing is not strictly positive.

[Qvist]

Thanks for the research michaeljb.
But if we take the official definition, then Ruins and Spoils are both no basic cards. Nowhere is written that Ruins are basic cards.
And arguing that Ruins are similar to Curse is no valid argument, as I can say that Spoils are similar to Gold and both are only put on the board when at least one of 3 existing cards is in the kingdom. Even Potion is a basic card and is only on the board when one of 11 existing cards is in the kingdom.

For me a card is a basic card when it is referenced on at least 2 Kingdom cards. Rhetorical question: If there would be a card still to be released that would reference Prizes or Madman or Mercenary, would you see the latter as basic card?

Maybe we could get clarfication from Donald X.?

Another possibility would be to rename the caption of the row in the navbox to "Other" and it would solve the problem

[AJD]

Thanks for the research michaeljb.
But if we take the official definition, then Ruins and Spoils are both no basic cards. Nowhere is written that Ruins are basic cards.

There isn't an official "definition". We're trying to arrive at a reasonable and consistent definition based on the textual evidence we have; if there were a stated official definition this discussion would have a different character.

And arguing that Ruins are similar to Curse is no valid argument, as I can say that Spoils are similar to Gold and both are only put on the board when at least one of 3 existing cards is in the kingdom.

Spoils are never put "on the board".

[Qvist]

Thanks for the research michaeljb.
But if we take the official definition, then Ruins and Spoils are both no basic cards. Nowhere is written that Ruins are basic cards.

There isn't an official "definition". We're trying to arrive at a reasonable and consistent definition based on the textual evidence we have; if there were a stated official definition this discussion would have a different character.

I know that there isn't an official definition. I meant the quotes from the rulebook that michaeljb posted.

And arguing that Ruins are similar to Curse is no valid argument, as I can say that Spoils are similar to Gold and both are only put on the board when at least one of 3 existing cards is in the kingdom.

Spoils are never put "on the board".

I don't know if this a translation problem, but they aren't in the supply, but they are on the board/on the table.

[AJD]

And arguing that Ruins are similar to Curse is no valid argument, as I can say that Spoils are similar to Gold and both are only put on the board when at least one of 3 existing cards is in the kingdom.

Spoils are never put "on the board".

I don't know if this a translation problem, but they aren't in the supply, but they are on the board/on the table.

There's no official definition of "on the board" either. You don't have to put Spoils on the table; you could totally leave them in the box and then just go fetch one whenever someone plays a Bandit Camp. That's why there's no setup instructions for them or statement in the rule book about when to use them, the way there is for Ruins and Potions and so on.

[GendoIkari]

In regards to cantrips, I completely agree with AJD. What matters in regards to referring to something as a cantrip is simply "can you play as many of them as you want every turn without any reason not to?" So that means that every card that gives at least 1 action, and at least 1 card, without forcing you to discard or trash, is a cantrip.

In other words, if after playing it, you have at least as many actions remaining as you did before, and at least as many cards in hand as you did before, then it's a cantrip.

The only questionable ones are Pawn, Tournament, Conspirator, and Trusty Steed. Those I would list as "sometimes cantrips".

*Edit* Also, Mystic in the "sometimes" category.

*Edit2* Band of Misfits could also be called "sometimes cantrip", but I probably wouldn't, unless you also plan on listing it as an attack, and a duration, and a dual-type card, and non-terminal draw, and terminal draw, etc.

[GendoIkari]

In regards to "basic".... my opinion is that a "basic" card is one that's used in every game, no matter what. That means there are only 7 basic cards, and there will never be any more.

Colony, Platinum, Potions, Shelters, and Ruins are not "basic" cards, but they do have their own special category... extra supply piles that have their own rules about whether or not they are included in the game; when included they act just like the basic cards.

Spoils, Prizes, Madmen, and Mercenary have another category of their own... piles which are not part of the supply, and cannot be bought or gained except by special effects that allow it, and do not count towards a 3-pile ending.

[Donald X.]

Maybe we could get clarfication from Donald X.?

I would just look at it in terms of utility in the wiki.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, and Curse are cards with no text that come in three products. I would put them together. All other cards I would put with the expansion they come with, even though Base Cards reprints Platinum / Colony / Curse. I would put them after a different delimiter at the end of the list. I could see being redundant and having a Base Cards section in the big links block, with everything that product has, and still also having Potion with Alchemy and Platinum / Colony with Prosperity. Base Cards, it's a product, it has certain cards in it, there you go.

Personally, when it's a card article, I would probably just show the expansion list for that card at the bottom, and a list of other topics for that expansion if there are any, plus a list of expansions, and maybe a list of general topic areas if there is one. The giant block showing every card could still appear on the main page or something. OTOH what does it matter if there's a giant thing at the end of each article, maybe it's fine.

For me the most significant general categories are: free (+1 card +1 action or more), attack, village/throne, remodel/vault (trash or discard for benefit), +buy, non-attack interaction, victory, treasure, trash cards, gain cards. There is a broader useful category of all cards that are fine to get in multiples - +1 action or more, thrones, remodel/vault, victory, treasure. I'm not sure that has any merit for the wiki but it's useful when say writing a program to generate sets-of-10. Similarly you can group attacks with non-attack interaction. And then every expansion has themes that can be categories.

I have not read any Ayn Rand.

[AJD]

In regards to cantrips, I completely agree with AJD. What matters in regards to referring to something as a cantrip is simply "can you play as many of them as you want every turn without any reason not to?" So that means that every card that gives at least 1 action, and at least 1 card, without forcing you to discard or trash, is a cantrip.

That's not complete agreement with me. I would regard Junk Dealer and Oasis as cantrips.

[eHalcyon]

My idea of a basic card is a card that is NOT one of the 10 randomized cards that is nevertheless available for purchase in the supply, depending on more than just one card.

Therefore Colony and Plat are basic cards, as are Ruins.  Shelters and Spoils are not.  Bane is not either because it is tied solely to Young Witch.

[greatexpectations]

I disagree that laboratory is a cantrip it more than replaces itself

same thing i said before. this is true of just about every cantrip out there. why should the +Card bonus count against being a cantrip while +$1 does not?

[greatexpectations]

in other news it has been what 12 days since qvist started up the wiki? as of this post we already have 306 articles with some pretty good variety and detail. that's pretty fantastic.

[dirkdebeule]

I see that there's a trivia section for each card, so here is all of the art trivia I can think of.

Bureaucrat: The art depicts the artist, Matthias Catrein.

Harem: The art depicts developer Valerie Putman. She's in the back, between the giant half face and the man.

Native Village: The art connects with Pirate Ship to the left.

Pearl Diver: The art depicts playtester Wei-Hwa Huang. He won a tournament at the Gathering of Friends where being depicted was the prize.

Island: The art connects with Pirate Ship to the right.

Navigator: The art depicts developer Dale Yu.

Pirate Ship: The art connects with Island to the left and Native Village to the right.

Bazaar: This art was turned in for Market, but by mistake another artist was also doing Market.

Scrying Pool: Village can be seen in the scrying pool.

City: This art was also used for the box for Carcassonne: The City.

Counting House: The art shows the victory point shield on the wall.

Goons: This art was turned in for Pawn.

Duchess: The art is related to the art for Duke.

Abandoned Mine: The art shows a ruined version of the art for Mine.

Mercenary: The art includes a dagger and red sash from Urchin.

Ruined Library: The art shows a ruined version of the art for Library.

Ruined Market: The art shows a ruined version of the art for Grand Market.

Ruined Village: The art shows a ruined version of the art for Walled Village.

Overgrown Estate: The art shows an overgrown version of the art for Estate, from Base Cards.

Storeroom: This art was turned in as an alternate option for Vault.

Sir Martin, Dame Anna, Dame Josephine, Sir Destry, Sir Michael, Sir Vander: The art depicts a playtester.

Pillage: The art shows Village, under attack.

Black Market: The expansion symbol is the Spielbox magazine symbol.

Envoy: The expansion symbol is the Wiener Riesenrad in Vienna.

Walled Village: The art shows the medieval village Carcassonne. The expansion symbol is a Carcassonne meeple.

Governor: The art continues art used for Puerto Rico: Anniversary Edition; the expansion symbol is from its cover.

Stash: The art includes faces of SdJ jury members on the coins. The expansion symbol is the award poppel.

Can you give an update for the last 10 years ;-)

[Donald X.]

Church: Depicts a real church, Schwerin Cathedral.

Captain: Depicts RTT, who won a tournament of some sort for the privilege.

Royal Blacksmith: Card renamed from Old Blacksmith due to the art.

Enchantress: It's Circe from Greek mythology.

Pixie: Ties into the art for Fool, Goat, and Lucky Coin (the Fool is also on Lost in the Woods).

Ducat: It's an authentic image of a ducat, an old Italian coin.

Old Witch: Ties into Young Witch.

Artifacts: Four of these tie into the card that makes them (Horn does not).

Sheepdog: The artist has promised not to copy source images so closely in the future. https://www.mondou.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-Mondou_CA-Library/default/dw51e77c41/images/Conseil/chien/berger-anglais/engsheep1.jpg

Way of the Turtle: I think this had the same issue, but don't see the source image at a glance.

Berserker: Depicts Dale Yu, formerly on Navigator.

Witch's Hut: Depicts Baba Yaga's hut.

[dirkdebeule]

Thanks Donald!