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werothegreat

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #150 on: November 04, 2012, 10:41:37 am »
+1

On this note - Donald X: had you been reading Atlas Shrugged when you came up with "Looters" as a card type?
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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #151 on: November 04, 2012, 11:03:48 am »
+2

I think it would be nice to have categories for the major card types that would appear as categories on those cards' pages. So, a "Category: Victory card" for victory cards, a "Category: Looter card" for Looters, etc. It seems that the easiest way to do this would be to incorporate it into the Template:Cardbox as part of the Type field. To do this, I'm thinking I will have to break the types up into one type per field. This will mean you will now need to do something like:

Code: [Select]
{{Cardbox|
 |Card = Tunnel
 |Cost = 3
 |Set = [[Hinterlands]]
 |Type = Victory
 |Type2 = Reaction
 |Text = 2VP<br/>When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.
 |BaseCard = (optional)
 |NotInKingdom = (optional)
}}

There will obviously be Type3 and Type4 to handle Dame Josephine. The Cardbox look itself won't change, but it will allow each type to be handled separately as a category.
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Schneau

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #152 on: November 04, 2012, 11:16:00 am »
+1

I think it would be nice to have categories for the major card types that would appear as categories on those cards' pages. So, a "Category: Victory card" for victory cards, a "Category: Looter card" for Looters, etc. It seems that the easiest way to do this would be to incorporate it into the Template:Cardbox as part of the Type field. To do this, I'm thinking I will have to break the types up into one type per field. This will mean you will now need to do something like:

Code: [Select]
{{Cardbox|
 |Card = Tunnel
 |Cost = 3
 |Set = [[Hinterlands]]
 |Type = Victory
 |Type2 = Reaction
 |Text = 2VP<br/>When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.
 |BaseCard = (optional)
 |NotInKingdom = (optional)
}}

There will obviously be Type3 and Type4 to handle Dame Josephine. The Cardbox look itself won't change, but it will allow each type to be handled separately as a category.

I think this is now working. Now we just have to reformat all the types (I've only done Tactician and Dame Josephine). I'm not sure if this is something that can be done by a bot or not, but if so, that would be nice :).
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #153 on: November 04, 2012, 11:32:02 am »
+1

I think it would be nice to have categories for the major card types that would appear as categories on those cards' pages. So, a "Category: Victory card" for victory cards, a "Category: Looter card" for Looters, etc. It seems that the easiest way to do this would be to incorporate it into the Template:Cardbox as part of the Type field. To do this, I'm thinking I will have to break the types up into one type per field. This will mean you will now need to do something like:

Code: [Select]
{{Cardbox|
 |Card = Tunnel
 |Cost = 3
 |Set = [[Hinterlands]]
 |Type = Victory
 |Type2 = Reaction
 |Text = 2VP<br/>When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.
 |BaseCard = (optional)
 |NotInKingdom = (optional)
}}

There will obviously be Type3 and Type4 to handle Dame Josephine. The Cardbox look itself won't change, but it will allow each type to be handled separately as a category.

I think this is now working. Now we just have to reformat all the types (I've only done Tactician and Dame Josephine). I'm not sure if this is something that can be done by a bot or not, but if so, that would be nice :).

Haha, I just posted the same on the wiki: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Template_talk:Cardbox

The "Did you know?" was a great idea and it already looks very nice. Good job.

Regarding Card types. Try to make a Category tree as far as possible. So a card belonging to the remodel family is a special case of TfB. I would start adding it into a TfB article. And if that gets big enought we could split it up later.

DStu

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #154 on: November 04, 2012, 11:38:44 am »
+3

I think it would be nice to have categories for the major card types that would appear as categories on those cards' pages. So, a "Category: Victory card" for victory cards, a "Category: Looter card" for Looters, etc. It seems that the easiest way to do this would be to incorporate it into the Template:Cardbox as part of the Type field. To do this, I'm thinking I will have to break the types up into one type per field. This will mean you will now need to do something like:

Code: [Select]
{{Cardbox|
 |Card = Tunnel
 |Cost = 3
 |Set = [[Hinterlands]]
 |Type = Victory
 |Type2 = Reaction
 |Text = 2VP<br/>When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a Gold.
 |BaseCard = (optional)
 |NotInKingdom = (optional)
}}

There will obviously be Type3 and Type4 to handle Dame Josephine. The Cardbox look itself won't change, but it will allow each type to be handled separately as a category.

I think this is now working. Now we just have to reformat all the types (I've only done Tactician and Dame Josephine). I'm not sure if this is something that can be done by a bot or not, but if so, that would be nice :).
I'm on it, works quite well

:e But maybe I forget some rare cases with Knights, Prizes and Fool's Gold-like combinations

:e2 I think I got Treasure, Victory, Action, Action-Reaction, Action-Duration, Action-Attack, Tunnel, Fool's Gold, Treasure-Victory, Action-Victory

:e3 +Prizes, +Knights +Ruins. I stop now, if something is left (don't know what), that has to be done by hand.

:e4 Ok, think I forgot Looters...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:44:50 pm by DStu »
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Schneau

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #155 on: November 04, 2012, 01:37:29 pm »
0

Excellent work DStu, everything looks great as far as I can see!
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DStu

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #156 on: November 04, 2012, 01:57:42 pm »
+1

Excellent work DStu, everything looks great as far as I can see!

Found some remainings, because there where some links [[ Attacks]] or [[Action ]] (note the blanks) that where not captured by my regular expressions.  Now have a script to 'normalize' all internal links.
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #157 on: November 04, 2012, 04:54:37 pm »
+2

Regarding Card Categories: I created a page for that and did some editing. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Card_Categories
Really exhausting finding all the cards and "subcategorizing" them. So I stop now. You might disagree with some points. Feel free to discuss.

AJD

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #158 on: November 04, 2012, 07:39:14 pm »
+2

I reorganized <a href="http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Trasher">Trasher</a>.
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michaeljb

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #159 on: November 04, 2012, 10:26:52 pm »
+1

Quote
Direct Quotes

With both flavor texts of expansions and secret histories of cards, I think it would be good to somehow indicate that the text is a direct quote and not just something somebody added. Can we put these in block quotes or something indicating that they are from those sources? --Schneau (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2012 (EDT)

I created Template:Quote. I will style it later.--Qvist (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2012 (EDT)

Would the styling include making paragraphs look nice? (I'm guessing yes :P) With the secret histories, I added in some < br > tags to separate the paragraphs to avoid the wall of text, but now I feel like that was the wrong solution and a silly decision. Examples: Alchemy with br tags shoved in, Prosperity with a big wall of text.
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Ozle

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #160 on: November 05, 2012, 05:45:05 am »
0

Why do Prizes not show in the main card list, being only a link. And yet cards like Spoils do?
I would think they would all be down the bottom?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #161 on: November 05, 2012, 10:11:05 am »
0

Why do Prizes not show in the main card list, being only a link. And yet cards like Spoils do?
I would think they would all be down the bottom?
Prizes aren't "base cards", so they're not down with Spoils. "Prizes" is parenthetically linked after Tournament, just like Madman is after Hermit.
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brokoli

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #162 on: November 05, 2012, 11:04:46 am »
0

Great work on the wiki.

However, I don't agree about the definition of cantrip.

- Villages are not real cantrips. The main benefit of a cantrip is action chaining, while village is rather a +action/+draw card.
- I also disagree about caravan, laboratory, Hunting party and stables. They are non-terminal draw, but not really cantrips because they increase your hand size.

IMO, cantrip is mainly a self-replacing card which offers exactly +1 card, +1 action, no more no less. Some examples : Pearl Diver, Market, Spy, Familiar, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Rats, Market Square, Highway ... somehow Ironmonger since you rarely know what is the benefit you'll have, Pawn because you always can play it like a cantrip, conspirator when activated, Tournament when opponent do not reveal province, etc...

Also, cards like Oasis and Warehouse are not cantrips as they decrease your handsize.
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Schneau

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2012, 11:10:59 am »
0

Great work on the wiki.

However, I don't agree about the definition of cantrip.

- Villages are not real cantrips. The main benefit of a cantrip is action chaining, while village is rather a +action/+draw card.
- I also disagree about caravan, laboratory, Hunting party and stables. They are non-terminal draw, but not really cantrips because they increase your hand size.

IMO, cantrip is mainly a self-replacing card which offers exactly +1 card, +1 action, no more no less. Some examples : Pearl Diver, Market, Spy, Familiar, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Rats, Market Square, Highway ... somehow Ironmonger since you rarely know what is the benefit you'll have, Pawn because you always can play it like a cantrip, conspirator when activated, Tournament when opponent do not reveal province, etc...

Also, cards like Oasis and Warehouse are not cantrips as they decrease your handsize.

Junk Dealer and Rats decrease handsize. </nitpick>

To be serious, I favor a more liberal definition of cantrip to include anything that always gives at least +1 Card and +1 Action, including Villages and Lab-variants. Basically, any card that replaces itself with at least one more card and one more action. I would consider cards like Pawn and Tournament to not be full cantrips, since they don't guarantee +1 Card and +1 Action with every play - but, they should probably be included in some sort of "sometimes cantrips" section.
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #164 on: November 05, 2012, 11:13:13 am »
+1

Great work on the wiki.

However, I don't agree about the definition of cantrip.

- Villages are not real cantrips. The main benefit of a cantrip is action chaining, while village is rather a +action/+draw card.
- I also disagree about caravan, laboratory, Hunting party and stables. They are non-terminal draw, but not really cantrips because they increase your hand size.

IMO, cantrip is mainly a self-replacing card which offers exactly +1 card, +1 action, no more no less. Some examples : Pearl Diver, Market, Spy, Familiar, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Rats, Market Square, Highway ... somehow Ironmonger since you rarely know what is the benefit you'll have, Pawn because you always can play it like a cantrip, conspirator when activated, Tournament when opponent do not reveal province, etc...

Also, cards like Oasis and Warehouse are not cantrips as they decrease your handsize.

AFAIK there's disagreement about that in the community. I will tackle that when I write the Cantrip part of Card Categories and will include it in the Cantrip article too.
In short:
Strict definition: Not more nor less than +1 Card, +1 Action every time its played and keeping the same handsize. It can other bonuses though.
Loose definition: Not less than +1 Card, +1 Action every time its played and at least keeping the same handsize.
Apothecary would go in the loose defition for example. But Stables and Oasis are both no cantrips.

Anyone disagree?

DStu

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #165 on: November 05, 2012, 11:15:09 am »
+2

IMO, cantrip is mainly a self-replacing card which offers exactly +1 card, +1 action, no more no less. Some examples : Pearl Diver, Market, Spy, Familiar, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Rats, Market Square, Highway ... somehow Ironmonger since you rarely know what is the benefit you'll have, Pawn because you always can play it like a cantrip, conspirator when activated, Tournament when opponent do not reveal province, etc...

Also, cards like Oasis and Warehouse are not cantrips as they decrease your handsize.
I don't like the "exactly". Usually, when you talk about Cantrips, you talk about them because you can gain/play them with no negative to your hand in any* situation, because they replace yourself. I can't think of a situation where the property of Pearl Diver, that it doesn't give a second action is important. Actually, of course I can think of such a situation, but that are situations where you don't talk about Cantrips anyway, but talk about Villages. So to be precise, there are no situations where you want any "strict" Cantrip, but don't want a Village.

But there are lots of situations where you talk about Cantrips, where it doesn't matter: "Use two Cantrips to activate the Conspirator; Use Cantrips to cheapen Peddler" would have to be written as "Use two Cantrips or (strict) Villages or non-terminal draw or a combination thereof to activate the Conspirator" and all these, and it's just easier to have (strict) Village and non-terminal draw as subcategories of Cantrips, as with seperate categories just for some pureness of the word, or may be historical reasons(?).
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jonts26

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2012, 11:25:27 am »
0

Why do Prizes not show in the main card list, being only a link. And yet cards like Spoils do?
I would think they would all be down the bottom?

Also, shelters and ruins are both listed as a category, instead of individually linking each card. I couldn't think of a good, clean way to individually list the prizes, so I just lumped them together next to tourney which makes sense to me. If you have a good suggestion, though, it could be changed.
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Ozle

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2012, 11:28:33 am »
0

Why do Prizes not show in the main card list, being only a link. And yet cards like Spoils do?
I would think they would all be down the bottom?

Also, shelters and ruins are both listed as a category, instead of individually linking each card. I couldn't think of a good, clean way to individually list the prizes, so I just lumped them together next to tourney which makes sense to me. If you have a good suggestion, though, it could be changed.

I think someone already gave a good explanation earlier that made sense of the way you have done it

(I would have put them in a separate line titled Prizes)
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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #168 on: November 05, 2012, 01:30:26 pm »
0

Why do Prizes not show in the main card list, being only a link. And yet cards like Spoils do?
I would think they would all be down the bottom?
Prizes aren't "base cards", so they're not down with Spoils. "Prizes" is parenthetically linked after Tournament, just like Madman is after Hermit.

Spoils also aren't base cards, and neither are Shelters. In the NavBox, they should definitely be up with the other Dark Ages cards.
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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #169 on: November 05, 2012, 06:23:44 pm »
0

I understand you all, but somehow disagree. Spoils, Shelters and Ruins are such basic cards that they should go in the same section as all other basic cards.
I think Shelters are obvious because although they aren't in any pile they can be in any game and aren't dependant from any specific card on the board.
Spoils and Ruins are both present when one of 3 possible Kingdom Cards are present and are all such basic cards, similar to Gold and Curse. They should go hand in hand with those.

AJD

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #170 on: November 05, 2012, 06:57:57 pm »
0

I understand you all, but somehow disagree. Spoils, Shelters and Ruins are such basic cards that they should go in the same section as all other basic cards.
I think Shelters are obvious because although they aren't in any pile they can be in any game and aren't dependant from any specific card on the board.
Spoils and Ruins are both present when one of 3 possible Kingdom Cards are present and are all such basic cards, similar to Gold and Curse. They should go hand in hand with those.

Ruins are definitely basic cards; they behave just like Potions. Spoils are definitely not basic cards; they behave like Prizes. Shelters are harder to figure since you can't gain them, but I lean towards considering them to be basic cards since they substitute for Estates and those are basic cards.
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Qvist

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #171 on: November 05, 2012, 07:05:38 pm »
0

If Ruins are basic cards, then Spoils are basic cards too.
You put Ruins on the board if there's one of 3 cards with type Looter in the kingdom.
You put Spoils on the board if there's one of 3 cards that references them in the kingdom.

The only difference is that Spoils aren't in the supply, but Ruins are.
It all depends from the definition of a "basic card". Do they have to be in the supply?

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #172 on: November 05, 2012, 07:51:54 pm »
+4

I've gone through each rulebook looking for how they use the word "basic," and here's what I found:

Dominion
refers to Copper/Province/etc as 'basic Treasure' and 'basic Victory' cards, available every game
Curse available every game, not identified as 'basic'
broad classification of cards are: basic Treasure cards, basic Victory cards, Trash pile/Curse cards, Kingdom cards (there's an image in the sidebar on one of the pages with cards sorted out like this)

Intrigue
refers to Dominion as the 'basic' game
refers to Copper/Province/etc as 'basic Treasure' and 'basic Victory' cards, available every game
Curse available every game, not identified as 'basic'

Seaside
does not use the word 'basic' at all

Alchemy - first use of capitalized "Basic" and "Basic Supply"
"Dominion: Alchemy is an expansion, and can't be played by itself; to play with it, you need Dominion, or a standalone expansion to Dominion (Dominion: Intrigue). Those provide the Basic cards you need to play (Treasure, Victory, and Curse cards), as well as the full rules for setup and gameplay."
"16 Basic cards, all Potion"
"Potion is a new Basic Treasure card."
 "Alchemy includes a Treasure card with rules: Philosopher’s Stone. Philosopher’s Stone is in the Supply if it is selected as one of the 10 Kingdom cards for the game; it is not part of the Basic Supply."
in Potion's FAQ - "This is a basic Treasure card" [only time in rulebook 'basic' is lowercase]

Prosperity
"This is the 4th addition to the game of Dominion. It adds 25 new Kingdom cards to Dominion, plus 2 new Basic cards that let players keep building up past Gold and Province. "
"Dominion: Prosperity is an expansion, and cannot be played by itself; to play with it, you need Dominion, or a standalone expansion to Dominion (e.g., Dominion: Intrigue). Those provide the Basic cards you need to play (Treasure, Victory, and Curse cards), as well as the full rules for setup and gameplay."
"If only Kingdom cards from Prosperity are being used this game, then the Platinum and Colony piles are added to the Basic cards in the Supply for the game. "
"24 Basic cards, 12 each of Colony and Platinum"
Prosperity includes eight Treasure cards with rules on them. They are in the Supply if selected as one of the 10 Kingdom cards for the game; they are not part of the Basic Supply.

Cornucopia
"To play with Cornucopia, you need a complete Dominion game such as the original Dominion or Dominion: Intrigue. These provide the Basic cards you need to play (Treasure, Victory, and Curse cards), as well as the full rules for setup and gameplay."


Hinterlands (pdf seems to be from an image, not a text, so can't copy-paste the text right over)
same thing about needing Dominion or Intrigue for Basic cards
same thing about its Treasure cards not being part of the Basic Supply

Dark Ages
"Dark Ages includes two Treasure cards with rules on them. They are in the Supply if selected as one of the 10 Kingdom cards for the game; they are not part of the Basic Supply."


Dominion has this to say about "the Supply": "Players will not use all of the cards in every game. Other than the players’ starting Decks, the other cards used in a game of Dominion are called the Supply. "

I would define Basic cards as those cards that are part of the "Basic Supply".
Spoils definitely aren't part of the "Basic Supply", while Potion, Colony and Platinum definitely are "Basic." Since Ruins can be bought and gained just like Curses, they are definitely part of the Supply, and I infer that they are part of the Basic Supply; they're not part of the Kingdom cards, and it makes more sense to put them in the Basic Supply then add a third category. I would argue that Shelters are not Basic because they are not part of the Supply.


So the way I see it, all the cards in a Dominion game can be found in one of these places:
-each player's Dominion (Deck); usually starts as 7 Coppers and 3 Estates, sometimes 7 Coppers and 1 Hovel, 1 Necropolis, 1 Overgrown Estate.

-The Supply; when you gain a card or buy a card, it comes from the Supply (unless otherwise specified), which consists of two main parts:
---The Basic Supply (Copper, Silver, Gold, Curse, Estate, Duchy, Province, and sometimes Potion, Platinum, Colony, Ruins)
--The Kingdom cards

-The Trash (and the Trash marker card)

-Other piles/decks; these are not part of the Supply, and are here because one or more Kingdom cards name a special, different location for them (Prize pile, Black Market deck, Spoils pile, Madman pile, Mercenary pile)

tl;dr - michaeljb probably cares too much about definition of "Basic"
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:07:20 pm by michaeljb »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #173 on: November 05, 2012, 08:14:47 pm »
+2

Junk Dealer and Rats decrease handsize. </nitpick>

the example of upgrade decreases handsize too.

IMO, cantrip is mainly a self-replacing card which offers exactly +1 card, +1 action, no more no less. Some examples : Pearl Diver, Market, Spy, Familiar, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Rats, Market Square, Highway ... somehow Ironmonger since you rarely know what is the benefit you'll have, Pawn because you always can play it like a cantrip, conspirator when activated, Tournament when opponent do not reveal province, etc...

well if we are all nitpicking then none of the cards you list meet your criteria. they all offer some benefit - why should that benefit count against the cantrip definition in the case of village or lab but not count against it for the +$1 of peddler? i think we can all agree that a card that reduces your hand isn't a cantrip, but im less convinced by the case against village or lab.

really, there is going to be tons of this sort of overlap and disagreement on the definitions of cards. i don't think that removing or excluding borderline cases is the right move. i would advocate throwing an asterisk and a note explaining what other categories might fit better.

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AJD

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Re: Dominion Wiki
« Reply #174 on: November 05, 2012, 09:41:10 pm »
+1

My basic understanding of "cantrip" is 'a card that replaces itself'—not a card that produces exactly +1 card and +1 action, not a card that doesn't reduce handsize when played, but rather, a card that has this property:

Playing the card is equivalent to the following: you don't having the card in your deck at all, but when you draw your hand a magic fairy shows up and gives you a bonus.

So, Pearl Diver is a cantrip because drawing five cards and playing Pearl Diver is the same as drawing five cards not including the Pearl Diver, and a magic fairy says "Here's the card on the bottom of your deck! Want to move it to the top?"

And the same applies to Hamlet, Upgrade, Laboratory, and so on.
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