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[Reyk]

I wasn't very happy about my bishop purchase in hindsight:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110824-122516-872e65bd.html

I felt that HT (or Moneylender?) are better here to get the critical 5$ cards.

Although I had some not so good draws early I was really lucky that my opponent could only get $7 from 8 cards at turn 14 while I got exactly $16 next turn. Is this luck the end of the story? I do have some questions anyway:

- What would be your 3/4 start as first player and as second player in reaction to opponent's bishop?
- Would you have included Jester at some point?
- How would you have spent 14$ at turn 10?:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110824-122516-872e65bd.html#NinjaBus-show-turn-10
In other words: Did he buy too much silver for the bazaar/wharf engine? (maybe Gold/Province instead?)
- Would you in place of my opponent have trashed Copper instead of Estate at turn 12 as the estates might still produce money through Horse Traders?:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110824-122516-872e65bd.html#califax-show-turn-12

[Geronimoo]

The board has weak attackers, weak trashing and otherwise weak engine support (a $5-village...). It does however feature the most powerful non-attacking $5-card in the game which combos absolutely fine with basic Treasures. I'm quite sure Wharf/Money is the dominant strategy here and you should open Silver/Silver (even though that sounds really boring).

Here's my best Wharf/Money bot:

Code: [Select]

<player name="BM - Wharf">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

And here's my best Wharf/Bazaar bot:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Bazaar/Wharf">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="13.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Terminal"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <extra_operation type="plus" attribute="1.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bazaar"/>
   <buy name="Bishop">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bishop"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

The Engine worked best with Bishop (I tried Moneylender and Horse Trader), but it still loses 40-60 against the simple Wharf/Money.

[Geronimoo]

 

Just saw my Simulator has a bug and it plays Wharf before Bazaar

 

After fixing it, the engine with Bishop beats the big money 58-39...

I'll upload the fix as soon as possible.

[ackack]

I felt that HT (or Moneylender?) are better here to get the critical 5$ cards.

I prefer Moneylender if you're gunning for Wharves. You're going to soon have +buy anyway and Moneylender will strengthen the deck in a way that Horse Traders won't. I probably open Moneylender/Silver here regardless of my opponent's play - I'll get a few early uses out of it and trash it and the Estates to the opponent's bishop.

I think Bazaars and Wharves are more important than Jester early, and Duchies are potentially more important late.

Re: $14 on turn 10, I think that's a Province and a Gold there. With 4 Bazaars, 4 Wharves and $20 in other money, I think the engine is already plenty strong and it's time to start scoring. (By that argument you could maybe push for Province/Duchy, but I think picking up the extra Gold is better.) ed: Oops, that's AFTER the purchase. So there's one fewer Wharf, Gold and Silver in there. That does make a big difference, obviously, but I think I'd still lean towards Province/Gold.

[DG]

First player probably moneylender, second player as silver/silver after a bishop opening.
I think the jester would be a good card here but there's a big question mark over when you'd get it (in preference to wharf or bazaar). Neither the bishop nor horse traders help the cause of the jester, so it would be best against a silver/silver opening.
Wharf/bazaar/silver turn 10 (overheat this deck)
Not sure about the estate on turn 12, probably trash it. I don't think the horse traders makes much difference.
Buy the estate back instead of silver on turn 13, sadly enough.

[Reyk]

thx to all.
@Geronimoo: I'm pretty sure chaining will beat wharf + money here. After all the village provides money and multiple wharfes are not bad either. Plus trashing isn't so weak. Simulations between the various 4/3 openings (all with chaining) would be interesting.

First player probably moneylender, second player as silver/silver after a bishop opening.

Just to be sure: The intention behind silver/silver is still wharf/bazaar?

[Geronimoo]

After fixing the Bazaar bug it soon became clear that a decent engine will easily beat the big money deck. And I already let a few variants play against each other with some surprising results (but you'll have to wait for that until I can upload the fix).

[DG]

Just to be sure: The intention behind silver/silver is still wharf/bazaar?

Absolutely.

[Epoch]

Yeah, I think the key thing to realize about Bazaar on this board is that while it's ordinarily a mediocre card, Wharf is powerful enough to get you to $5 pretty quickly, which takes away Bazaar's problems.

[chwhite]

Yeah, I think the key thing to realize about Bazaar on this board is that while it's ordinarily a mediocre card, Wharf is powerful enough to get you to $5 pretty quickly, which takes away Bazaar's problems.

Since when is Bazaar a mediocre card?

Anyway, the answer to "Bishop v. Horse Traders" is pretty clearly Moneylender, leading into a Wharf/Bazaar engine.  If I happened to have a spare $4 buy sometime in the midgame I'd probably grab a Bishop then.  I think Horse Traders is best when you need its +Buy, which isn't the case here.

[Epoch]

Since when is Bazaar a mediocre card?

Hmm!  Well, maybe it's not.

Here are the top 5 people on the leaderboard's Bazaar stats:

tat:  86.4% gained.  Effect with 0.04.  Effect without -0.19
obviated:  81.0% gained.  Effect with 0.38.  Effect without -0.09
HornyToad:  55.6% gained.  Effect with -0.37.  Effect without -1.73
iori:     78.7% gained.  Effect with 0.26.  Effect without 0.31
painted_cow:  77.9% gained.  Effect with -0.08.  Effect without -1.69

Which makes it look...  well, I don't know, exactly.  Not top-tier, certainly.

On the other hand, here's your stats with it:

77.1% gained.  Effect with 0.75.  Effect without -0.76

And obviously you're a top-tier player as well.  And that makes it look substantially better than the others.



I guess I've always summed up Bazaar like this:  It's Village +$1, of course, but at the high-tier $5 cost.  If I want a Village, I probably want a bunch of villages, to enable an engine, and I'd like them relatively quickly, so that I can buy the other parts of my engine without creating terminal collisions.  At $5, it's hard to buy several of them quickly.  Once my engine comes together, if it comes together soon enough, I ought to win the game.  A few extra money when my engine comes together shouldn't be critical.  So I don't really care if I get an extra $3 or $4 once my engine comes together -- I'd rather get it together a few turns earlier instead.

But perhaps I'm wrong.  How do you use Bazaar?



EDIT:  Amusingly, apparently what I say and what I do are different things.  Here are my stats with Bazaar:

Epoch:  Percent gained:  78.9.  Effect with:  1.93.  Effect without 0.14

If I had guessed, I would have guessed less than 50% gained and Effect with being sub 0.25.

[play2draw]

The big problem with a bunch of villages is that buying them doesn't increase your buying power and you need to split your buys among villages, money, and other engine cards (which is inefficient). Bazaars very much mitigate this issue.

[chwhite]

I guess I've always summed up Bazaar like this:  It's Village +$1, of course, but at the high-tier $5 cost.  If I want a Village, I probably want a bunch of villages, to enable an engine, and I'd like them relatively quickly, so that I can buy the other parts of my engine without creating terminal collisions.  At $5, it's hard to buy several of them quickly.  Once my engine comes together, if it comes together soon enough, I ought to win the game.  A few extra money when my engine comes together shouldn't be critical.  So I don't really care if I get an extra $3 or $4 once my engine comes together -- I'd rather get it together a few turns earlier instead.

But perhaps I'm wrong.  How do you use Bazaar?

Briefly, that extra $1 is actually a really big deal.  Bazaar is not just an extra Action to play with, it also adds an entirely invisible $1 to your deck, increasing your buying power by as much as Peddler or Tournament.  This means that, while Village can only be used to enable some other engine (since all it gives is Action), Bazaar is a productive part of the engine itself, increasing your buying power as you buy more of them without any need to, say, get a second Silver ever.  Another comparison would be to look at Bazaar vs. Market.  They're the same Peddler-plus, except that Bazaar gives Action and Market gives Buy.  Generally, +Action is better, which is why Market is actually kinda mediocre whereas Bazaar is a good card for setting up and executing any Action-heavy strategy. 

I don't think Bazaar is an elite $5, no.  It's not going to beat out, say, Wharf and Tactician and Torturer and Minion.  But it's a tremendous support card for all of those strategies, and many more.  I think it's one of the best Villages, in fact: not quite as efficient as Fishing Village or cheap and flexible as Hamlet, but probably more generally useful in a wide variety of situations than any other.  Most of the other Villages strike me as more specialized: much better in certain situations, but usually a little worse.  For example, Farming Village is incredible in games with curse attacks or Rabble, where the sifting makes a difference, but most of the time Bazaar's $1 is going to be of more use.

[guided]

The problem with Bazaar, in my mind, isn't that it fails to be a good card. It's that building a good Village-based engine so often requires $5 terminals, so you have to find all these $5 buys for both your Village and your terminals. Not that it can't be done. I just find that I'd very often rather have vanilla Village on the board than Bazaar when I'm trying to build an engine. If Bazaar is the only Village, that can definitely dissuade me from trying to build such an engine just on account of how many resources are required to gather Bazaars and the terminals I need.

In short: Bazaar is a card I love to have in my deck, but it's awfully expensive to get it there.

[rinkworks]

Adding to what chwhite says, which I very much agree with, figure that duplicating the functionality of an existing card but adding a coin to it is the difference between Copper/Silver or Silver/Gold.  Or the difference between a semi-weak $5 (Market) and a card so strong it can only be priced at $6 with a weird buy restriction (Grand Market).

Seems like whenever I play with Bazaars, I find myself needing/missing +Buys.  That highlights a weakness of Bazaar -- the lack of +Buy -- but also its strength:  I find myself with so much money, I *need* those +Buys in the first place.

I agree with the criticism that the $5 price tag puts it in competition with the drawers and terminals you need for a good engine.  But the flipside is that, with Bazaars in lieu of Villages, you need slightly fewer of those cards to make the engine work.

[guided]

you need slightly fewer of those cards to make the engine work.

Kiiiiinda. Halfway. You need just as many to get the same amount of card draw. Bazaar doesn't help your draw engine density any more than Village - your engine is just as likely to choke with 3 Bazaars in your deck as with 3 Villages. The question is: how bad is choking for your particular deck, and is the extra buck on Bazaar good enough compensation for being able to buy fewer of them quickly? As always: it depends.

[rinkworks]

you need slightly fewer of those cards to make the engine work.

Kiiiiinda. Halfway. You need just as many to get the same amount of card draw. Bazaar doesn't help your draw engine density any more than Village - your engine is just as likely to choke with 3 Bazaars in your deck as with 3 Villages. The question is: how bad is choking for your particular deck, and is the extra buck on Bazaar good enough compensation for being able to buy fewer of them quickly? As always: it depends.

To me the truth of my statement is self-evident.  True, it doesn't draw any better than a regular Village, but as it provides a portion of the payload you're looking for out of an engine, then obviously the other parts of that engine don't need to do as much.  Two Bazaars is 25% of the way to a Province already.  That's not insignificant, but I did say "slightly."

Maybe if you want to be nitpicky, it's more accurate to say that you need just as many drawing/linchpin cards to keep from choking during the greening stage, but the engine starts working faster, giving you a jump on the whole process.

[DG]

There is a big advantage from fishing villages, bazaars, and festivals in that you get coins from the facilitators of your engine. If this means you can trash down and reduce the payload (treasure) then there's more chance of the deck working and less chance of it clogging when you get green cards. It can be really useful if you're trying to gain control of a game, perhaps with ambassadors, and don't want to clog your deck with treasures just to get some income. That +1 coin seems weak but becomes strong if you can claim it every turn.

[kn1tt3r]

I'd open Moneylender here, but what's interesting is that you've bought Bazaar over Gold several times in the beginning.

Buying power with +buy cards like Wharf is important (you may get to $10 easier to buy 2 Bazaars anyway), so I'm not sure about this decision. On the other side it's also important to get the engine going asap...

What do you guys think?

[Geronimoo]

I fixed the Bazaar bug in the simulator. You can download it here.


Here are some cool bots to try:

the BM Wharf:

Code: [Select]

<player name="BM - Wharf">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

The engine with Bishop:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Bazaar/Wharf Bishop">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Terminal"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <extra_operation type="plus" attribute="1.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bazaar"/>
   <buy name="Bishop">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Bishop"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>

The engine with Moneylender:

Code: [Select]

<player name="Bazaar/Wharf/Moneylender">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Wharf"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="10.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wharf">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Terminal"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Village"/>
         <extra_operation type="plus" attribute="1.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Bazaar"/>
   <buy name="Moneylender">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Moneylender"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>


[Geronimoo]

Through simulations I think I can answer your intial questions:

I felt that HT (or Moneylender?) are better here to get the critical 5$ cards

If you want to build an engine, you need a trasher to speed up deck cycling. Any simulation I tried opening Horse Traders got badly beaten by the trasher openings.

What would be your 3/4 start as first player and as second player in reaction to opponent's bishop?

According to simulations if your opponent opens Bishop/Silver you should open Moneylender/Silver. Some people have suggested Silver/Silver and rely on the opponent's Bishop for trashing, but this proved way worse than Moneylender/Silver. If you know your opponent always goes for a Big Money deck and opens Silver/Silver you're better off with Bishop than with Moneylender because the Bishop's trashing doesn't help a Big Money Player much, but the extra VP's from Bishop form a buffer if your engine sputters a little. The matchups (this might be more telling than percentages?):
 -Moneylender vs BM is comparable to AT vs KJ
 -Bishop vs BM is comparable to AA vs 98s

Would you have included Jester at some point?

I tried a few things, but couldn't find a bot that improved because of Jester. The best spot to buy it however seemed as early as possible because it functions as a mix between University and Sea Hag which are best when bought in the early game.

How would you have spent 14$ at turn 10?

He has sufficient buying power already and should try to improve his engine a little more so I'd suggest Wharf/Bazaar/nothing. I wouldn't recommend buying Province so early because this will hinder the deck to reach the Big turn when it's capable of buying 2 Provinces at once which is probably the goal for this engine.

[Reyk]

thx for the simulation and for the great tool you provide.

What would be your 3/4 start as first player and as second player in reaction to opponent's bishop?

According to simulations if your opponent opens Bishop/Silver you should open Moneylender/Silver. Some people have suggested Silver/Silver and rely on the opponent's Bishop for trashing, but this proved way worse than Moneylender/Silver.

I thought about this, because
1) Silver + Copper (-> trash copper to opponent's bishop) = 2$
2) Moneylender + Copper = 3$

On the other hand you can trash estates to the bishop.

but what's interesting is that you've bought Bazaar over Gold several times in the beginning.

Buying power with +buy cards like Wharf is important (you may get to $10 easier to buy 2 Bazaars anyway), so I'm not sure about this decision. On the other side it's also important to get the engine going asap...

What do you guys think?

This might well be true. As a chainer I often underestimate money. One of my favourite cards is a money card though, albeit a special one (Horn of plenty).