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[Corpsified]

...But I still won. Although I'm not really sure why/how.

Here is the game.

The main reasons I can come up with for me winning would be:

1. Shuffle luck, I think this most likely.
2. He trashed too many or didn't buy enough treasure.

Any thoughts on this kingdom in general? Did he buy too many actions before going VP? Did I not buy enough? What is the right amount of treasure on a kingdom like this?

[Epoch]

Well, he very obviously did not buy enough Treasure.  Since he had, you know, 0 Treasure.  Markets and Fishing Villages are nice and all, but they really fucking struggle to reach Colony level, as your opponent surely should have noticed.  He basically had to play every card in his deck to reach $11.  With a couple of Platinums, he'd have had a lot easier time consistently buying Colonies.

He also didn't have enough drawing power.  More Courtyards would have helped him a bunch, especially as he started to go green.  I think you could've bought more of them, too.

Honestly, I'm not sure that this was a Kingdom for King's Courts.  I mean, they're a reasonable buy if you happen to be right on $7, but what was super-awesome about KC here?  You had very few terminals and tons of villages, so you didn't need the KCs to play lots of terminals.  There was no real single power card like Bridge or Goons that you wanted to just slam as many times as you could.  And they didn't really help your buying power, since KC - Market or KC - FV is $3, not enough to even mention in a Colony game.  Obviously, KC-KC-practically anything is pretty strong, but neither of you bought enough Courtyards to actually set that up reliably.

[play2draw]

Agreed... While treasure-less decks are fun, the power of owning even just one Platinum should not be overlooked.

Regardless, if one wanted to go for the "treasure-less" deck on this setup, I couldn't imagine doing so without a few Stewards. Use it with KC to draw cards. If you have enough cards, then use it for cash. Steward is good not simply because of it's ability to trash, but its overall versatility.

[DG]

I mean, they're a reasonable buy if you happen to be right on $7, but what was super-awesome about KC here?

Everything really. If you get a turn with king's court on kings' court then it all explodes upwards and onwards. Stewards are really good with king's courts. Buying less fishing villages would have been a good idea since I'm guessing they slowed zacpeck down when he looked to otherwise have a good deck. Some people seem to think that fishing villages are the best cards in Dominion but they do have their problems too. King's court on a fishing village gives three to spend this turn and 3 to spend next turn. Just one gold can do that if you can draw your deck each turn.

[Epoch]

Everything really. If you get a turn with king's court on kings' court then it all explodes upwards and onwards. Stewards are really good with king's courts.

Yeah, I just missed that Steward was there at all, since I focused on their decks-as-they-existed, and not the Kingdom board.

So, let me rephrase:  "What was super-awesome about KC with Fishing Village and Market"?

[tko]

Some people seem to think that fishing villages are the best cards in Dominion but they do have their problems too.

I generally encounter the Fishing Village problem but I don't fully understand it.  When do I have too many Fishing Villages?  Is 6 Fishing Village too many in general?  Or is 6 just too many when it's not supplemented by card drawing?  In a kingdom with no card drawing, would 6 Fishing Villages be reasonable if you were playing 6 Monuments?

[chwhite]

Some people seem to think that fishing villages are the best cards in Dominion but they do have their problems too.

I generally encounter the Fishing Village problem but I don't fully understand it.  When do I have too many Fishing Villages?  Is 6 Fishing Village too many in general?  Or is 6 just too many when it's not supplemented by card drawing?  In a kingdom with no card drawing, would 6 Fishing Villages be reasonable if you were playing 6 Monuments?

Well, sure, FV is weaker when +Card is absent and paradoxically it's also a little weaker when you can draw your entire deck.  Though if I was going after Monuments, then sure I'd take the FV over Silver at least.

Fishing Village is fantastic, but it's not perfect- no card is.  I think it's fair to call it the 3rd-best $3 card.

BTW, in this set (and many others) Fishing Village is actually a really bad target for King's Court: it locks your KC up for two turns and that's bad.  Markets and Stewards are good KC targets, though.

[DG]

Or is 6 just too many when it's not supplemented by card drawing?

The problem with the fishing village is that it doesn't draw any cards. Ten fishing villages are fine if you've got ten wharves to go with them. You can get wonderful king's courts working in this kingdom but if you only play 5 cards each turn there's a limit to how much you can make. Getting some fishing villages is still a good idea to kick start each turn.

[Markov Chain]

And the problem with Fishing Village in this set is that the extra actions weren't needed.  A silver gives you $2 in one round; a Fishing Village gives you $2 over two rounds, which is not quite as good, but also lets you play a terminal and then another action.  In this set, it is unlikely that you would want to do that much, except possibly with Steward (FV, Steward to draw two cards, and then play something like a Market.)  In the game as played, neither player ever had a terminal action.

[Corpsified]

BTW, in this set (and many others) Fishing Village is actually a really bad target for King's Court: it locks your KC up for two turns and that's bad.

Do I not understand the mechanics here? Why does it lock up your KC for 2 turns? I've never played with KC in real life so I might not be clear on all the rules. If you KC a duration action does the KC stay in the duration stack for a whole turn?

[chwhite]

BTW, in this set (and many others) Fishing Village is actually a really bad target for King's Court: it locks your KC up for two turns and that's bad.

Do I not understand the mechanics here? Why does it lock up your KC for 2 turns? I've never played with KC in real life so I might not be clear on all the rules. If you KC a duration action does the KC stay in the duration stack for a whole turn?

If you Throne Room or King's Court a Duration, they stay on the Duration through the next turn, because they're modifying the Duration.

Here's where it gets confusing:  if you King's Court a King's Court and use that on a Duration (or two or three), only the second KC stays out, for reasons that sort of make sense and sort of don't (namely, the first KC is modifying KC, which isn't a duration, so it's allowed to go away).  So you could have one KC held over, modifying up to 3 Durations.  Also, if you Throne or King a Tactician, it fizzles when they try and play Tactician again and thus the TR/KC *doesn't* stay on.  Or at least that's what I think happens.  This particular rule might have been errata'd, in fact I think it might be the only actual piece of errata Dominion has.

If you Throne or King an Outpost, then ouch. 

[rinkworks]

Or is 6 just too many when it's not supplemented by card drawing?

The problem with the fishing village is that it doesn't draw any cards. Ten fishing villages are fine if you've got ten wharves to go with them. You can get wonderful king's courts working in this kingdom but if you only play 5 cards each turn there's a limit to how much you can make. Getting some fishing villages is still a good idea to kick start each turn.

Exactly.  To put this another way, if you're not using Fishing Village for the extra actions, it's like having a Copper in your hand and having an extra coin on the next turn.  It's like a Lighthouse that doesn't provide protection from attacks.  It's fine, but the cost of using up a card slot is a steep price to pay.  A Silver would probably serve you better.

KC-Steward can draw up to six cards, though, which would make those extra actions come in handy.  I might get two or three Fishing Villages and try to use KC-Steward for the draw component (the trashing and $ functions of Steward also being helpful).  It's not an engine that would start reliably, and it might still be slower than a simpler idea, but it seems worth trying.

[philosophyguy]

Here's where it gets confusing:  if you King's Court a King's Court and use that on a Duration (or two or three), only the second KC stays out, for reasons that sort of make sense and sort of don't (namely, the first KC is modifying KC, which isn't a duration, so it's allowed to go away).  So you could have one KC held over, modifying up to 3 Durations.  Also, if you Throne or King a Tactician, it fizzles when they try and play Tactician again and thus the TR/KC *doesn't* stay on.  Or at least that's what I think happens.  This particular rule might have been errata'd, in fact I think it might be the only actual piece of errata Dominion has.

This is incorrect. I've posted an explanation, with links to Donald X's statements on the matter, here. Short version: you keep out as many KC/TR as are necessary in order to show how the duration cards are being played. If you play KC/KC/2 durations, both KC stay in play because the first KC shows why you are allowed to play the second KC on 2 duration cards. If you play KC/KC/1 duration, only the second KC needs to stay in play.

[Thisisnotasmile]

That was the original ruling Donald gave, but more recently he come out with something along the lines of "Fuck it, this is too confusing just leave out the 1 KC and be done with it".

[Jimmmmm]

That was the original ruling Donald gave, but more recently he come out with something along the lines of "Fuck it, this is too confusing just leave out the 1 KC and be done with it".

Do you have a link to that? I read something along the lines of "that's also a good way of doing it", ie a variation, but I was under the impression that the official rule was still KC-KC-2 durations => leave both KCs out.

[Thisisnotasmile]

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6908033#6908033

I never officially said, but my ruling on Throne / Throne / Duration is that only the Thrones that played Duration cards themselves stay out. This is what the rulebook says to do and so doesn't quite count as an update, but there was some question of interpretation for indirect Thrones and I previously ruled differently.

Not the quote I was thinking of but it's the one I found and it fits the bill. Emphasis is mine. First emphasis shows the ruling, second emphasis shows that it is different to what Donald had previously ruled.

[Jimmmmm]

Yep you're right. Thanks for that.