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[jamespotter]

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

[werothegreat]

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

Buy Gold, and hope there's a trasher.  Coppersmith would help.

[jonts26]

Well for starters, like any sort of 'rush as many of these cards as possible' deals, sometimes figuring out what else to buy is going to be very valuable. Sometimes it's obvious, but sometimes there might be other things to supplement the rush which require a bit of creativity.

And secondly, even in a boring IGG/duchy rush mirror, figuring out when to transition from IGG's to duchies is very important. Often, you want to start grabbing duchies before the IGG pile is empty. Maybe when there's only one or two left. The reasoning being, well, at that stage of the game, handing out an extra curse and winning the IGG split is probably not as good as winning the duchy split 5-3.

[DStu]

I have played many games with Ill-Gotten Gains, and every time, I feel it comes down to who gets the lucky 6-4 split on it. I understand that it depends on the set-up, but are there any strategies that tend to have a good chance of defeating it?

Strong trashing (Steward, Remake, Chapel) in combination with strong other $5s tend to defeat the IGG-rush. You handle the Curses quite well, while your opponent spend $5-buys on worse Silvers. Until the IGGs are low, you are on the best way to an engine, while the IGGplayer has nothing more than a BigMoney deck without Golds.

[jamespotter]

Thanks for the advice! I guess what I was looking for was a less random way of winning those IGG games. I'll have to try the Gold+trashing and $5+trashing against it.

[TWoos]

Might Embargo help?

[Eevee]

Embargo definitely kills the rush. Best counter to IGG is using veto mode though.

[WheresMyElephant]

Have you read the IGG article on the main site?

Some cards have the potential to make the IGG/Duchy rush very awkward by ensuring the Curses and IGGs don't run out at the same time. Then your opponent is forced to either buy Curses or buy IGGs without the benefit of Cursing you, to a degree that might become impractical. This ist includes Cursers, Ambassador, Moat, Trader, Watchtower (if you buy Curses and trash them yourself) and probably others.

Like all cards with on-gain benefits, IGG is also a pretty decent TfB candidate.

[TWoos]

I did read the article.

Ambassador & Masquerade work to dump curses on your opponent.  That's great.  Trader works to turn that incoming curse into Silver.  Also great.

Trader needs to be in hand, and Ambassador/Masquerade work after the fact.  Other trashing just dumps Curses, other Cursers try to empty the Curses first.

Oh, and City is good if none of the above can help.


But Embargo kills the whole concept, for a $2 card.  You can always pick it up in the opening, and shut down IGG fast.  (Not that I would automatically take that approach unless I've played against someone enough to know that if IGG shows up, it will be rushed, and I'm sick of dealing with it.)

[Qvist]

Buy Mountebank, Witch or any other Curser. Because the rush isn't that strong with any other curser on the board.
Buy Masquerade or Ambassador and give him the curses back.

[dondon151]

IGG rushes can be beaten with strong engines that have good trashing. Pretty obvious, but some people forget that not every board with IGG is necessarily an IGG rush in any sense of the term.

[loppo]

I remember a game, where pirate ships totally killed the ill-gotten gains rush. The ill-gotten gains player has to make 18 buys to 3-pile so that gives the piate ships at least 20 turns in the game.

Since the pirate ships are guaranteed to hit money, they grow really fast, and you can easily go on to provinces and win by quite a margin, even if you eat all 10 curses.

Something like this. Buy Pirate ships whenever possible, until they are worth 6 coins. then buy Provinces when possible, or continue upgrading. When Pirate ships are at 8, buy out the remaining Provinces.

Would be interesting to see some Simulation to prove

[Davio]

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.

[DStu]

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.

I once tried to rush IGGs against Cities with Steward, bad times, I tell you.

[DStu]

I remember a game, where pirate ships totally killed the ill-gotten gains rush. The ill-gotten gains player has to make 18 buys to 3-pile so that gives the piate ships at least 20 turns in the game.

Since the pirate ships are guaranteed to hit money, they grow really fast, and you can easily go on to provinces and win by quite a margin, even if you eat all 10 curses.

Something like this. Buy Pirate ships whenever possible, until they are worth 6 coins. then buy Provinces when possible, or continue upgrading. When Pirate ships are at 8, buy out the remaining Provinces.

Would be interesting to see some Simulation to prove

Non-optimized IGG

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'IGG'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Duchy"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
 
  gainCopperPriority: (state, my) -> [yes]
}
vs. non-optimized Pirate Ship

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'Pirate Ship'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ['Pirate Ship']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Pirate Ship"
    "Silver"
  ]
}
ties.  Pirate Ship default rules is attack unless it will bring you to $8 and has 5 tokens on mat.
IGG always takes Copper because it is better than never taking it, and being clever is difficult.  Seems like more space to optimize there, while the PS of course has more potential from other kingsomd cards.

[Robz888]

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.

[loppo]

Non-optimized IGG

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'IGG'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ["Ill-Gotten Gains"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Ill-Gotten Gains"
    "Duchy"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
 
  gainCopperPriority: (state, my) -> [yes]
}
vs. non-optimized Pirate Ship

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'Pirate Ship'
  author: 'Dstu'
  requires: ['Pirate Ship']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province"
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Pirate Ship"
    "Silver"
  ]
}
ties.  Pirate Ship default rules is attack unless it will bring you to $8 and has 5 tokens on mat.
IGG always takes Copper because it is better than never taking it, and being clever is difficult.  Seems like more space to optimize there, while the PS of course has more potential from other kingsomd cards.

Thanks, for the run through the Simulator. Good to know that pirate ships can  indeed be  on par with an ill-gotten gains rush. With the upside of possibly taking advantage from other kingdomcards.

[Asklepios]

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.

I agree.

The right path to $5 matters too. Salvager and Horse Traders are smart ways to get that first $5, for example, for their benefit in getting the first IGG, and for their later game benefits - Salvager to turn the IGG into more IGGs or VP, and Horse Traders to turn a lightly curse laden hand into a Duchy buying hand.

[CopperrCopper]

Given you are both rushing IGG, i think the best support is anything with a +buy which will help in winning the 3rd pile (estates or duchies probably). A simple woodcutter works well here.

[popsofctown]

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.

I agree

I always get mad when people complain about IGG more than DoubleJack

[brokoli]

IGG rushes are a lot more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They also make some small, stupid cards matter more often, like Coppersmith, Counting House, Remodel, Navigator, for instance.

I agree

I always get mad when people complain about IGG more than DoubleJack

Or minion.

[hamcannon]

Give them curses from non-IGG sources and just go for provinces. If there's no other cursing on the board, well, often all you can really do is try to 5-3 the duchies while they 6-4 the IGGs and win that way.

If you give them three curses, thats a 7-3 split, and they have to spend three turns buying bad silvers at $5 to three-pile the game. Four curses is even better, and at 5 you've pretty much got the game.

[zahlman]

Some cards have the potential to make the IGG/Duchy rush very awkward by ensuring the Curses and IGGs don't run out at the same time. Then your opponent is forced to either buy Curses or buy IGGs without the benefit of Cursing you, to a degree that might become impractical. This ist includes Cursers, Ambassador, Moat, Trader, Watchtower (if you buy Curses and trash them yourself) and probably others.

Moat won't block the incoming Curse, because opponent didn't play an Attack card (he bought a Treasure). Watchtower, OTOH, will block them and you don't have to buy them yourself; it's a Reaction, after all.

[timchen]

Someone tried to rush IGGs against my Hunting Party stack with a Remake, good times, I tell you.

This... I think, depends on how fast you can get a few HPs early. Early draw makes a huge difference. If you can't even get 1 HP in your turn 3-4 (which is unfortunately not that unlikely with remake+silver), I think the outlook is pretty grim.

[h1402686]

Unless I'm losing my mind, this (simplified) does it:

• Buy a Smithy
• Play standard big money until your opponent has bought 4 IGGs
• Then green hard: make a bunch of Duchies disappear before the IGGs run out, but go for Provinces and Estates too

I've pasted a Smithy bot below that beats the stock IGG bot 74-22 and a Council Room bot that wins 79-18. So a blind rush with no building isn't best here, although I'm not claiming IGG should actually be ignored either.

Smithy

Code: [Select]

<player name="Smithy for IGG"
 author="h1402686"
 description="Smithy bot optimized to beat IGG">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Smithy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Smithy"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="22.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Council Room

Code: [Select]

<player name="Council Room for IGG"
 author="h1402686"
 description="Council Room bot optimized to beat IGG">
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Curse"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Council_Room">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Council_Room"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countAllCardsInDeck"/>
         <extra_operation type="divideBy" attribute="16.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>