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[aaron0013]

There has probably been a thread on this in the past, but I haven't seen one in a while. 

So, the other day I was playing an Iso game with Bishop in the kingdom, and I was clearly winning.  I bought an early Province since it was pretty much a BM game, and my Bishop happened to come up with the Province before the endgame had started.  I trashed the Province and went on to win the game.

The question is, was that a smart move?  Say I would have trashed a copper:  I would have lost 0 VPs and gained 1.  When I trashed the Province, I lost 6 VPs and gained 5.  So this is a 2 point swing, but I got rid of a dead card. 

To further look into it, is it better to trash other VP cards such as Duchies or Estates?  Alternate VPs also shake things up.  In a short game it would be worth it to go ahead and trash a Gardens, but cards like Feodum and SR would present a much harder decision.  Normally, it would be pretty useless to trash a Great Hall or Island, but there could be cases when this would not be true.

So what are your thoughts? When is it worth it to trash VPs with Bishop and what cards are more conducive to it?  And don't tell me "It depends on the kingdom"

[ftl]

Provinces are 6 vp not 8.

[eHalcyon]

Province is worth 6 VP, not 8.  Bishop exchanges it for 5VP, which is a net loss of 1VP.  If you had Bishop-ed a Copper you would have gained 1 VP.  Total swing is 2VP, in exchange for a dead card.

I think it would depend on your deck composition.  In an extremely tight deck, getting rid of the dead card is great.  When you take that premise to the extreme, you get the Bishop Golden Deck.

If your deck doesn't mind a few extra dead cards and the game is close, maybe keeping the Province and taking the +VP is better for you.

It also depends on when in the game it is and what else is in your hand.  If it's still early and you'll reshuffle a few times yet, removing the dead card is good.  If it's late game and you probably won't be reshuffling, clearing the dead card is pointless and the extra VP is better.  If your hand is Gold-Gold-Copper-Bishop-Province then you should probably trash the Province and buy a new one instead of trashing the Copper.

Bishop on Estate or Duchy doesn't lose you any VP, do you have the opportunity cost of the 1 or more VP you would have gained from Bishop-ing something else.

[DG]

It is quite common to trash vp cards for vp tokens. There can be some simple maths involved telling you that playing the bishop for +1 coin can yield more points than not playing the bishop, even if you trash an existing vp card to do it. Tactically you might want to trash out your provinces if you need to retain the quality of your deck, even to the point of trashing every vp card you gain. If you take that principle to the extreme you will get something called the golden deck, typically {gold, silver, silver, bishop, province}. Each turn you trash a province, buy a province, and with only 5 cards in your deck you draw the same hand again next turn. You could buy and trash other cards for vp points but provinces are high cost cards and each province you buy will deprive it from your opponent.

[popsofctown]

Ironically, your title is "Bishop"

It's standard practice to trash provinces in spite of the -1 VP, when you could have had +1 VP, because the province makes less money than the copper.  You'd rather have +1$ on the card remaining in your deck instead of 2 VP, that's why we usually buy Gold over Harem .

Trashing Feodum for the pinata effect is quite a no brainer, any trash for benefit is going to make that worthwhile.  If you want to go the Gardens, Silk Road, or Feodum strategy, you shouldn't have a Bishop anyway, those strategies discourage trashing.  In those cases you should not be having a Bishop, if you do have a Bishop you're going for a different strategy and buying the 4$ vp cards so you can trash them and laugh when the opposing gardens player can't use them.

Usually Duchies don't end up in your deck unless you are willing to clog up your deck in order to gain VP because you need VP so bad, so usually if you draw Bishop with Duchy you trash a Gold or a 4 instead or something.  If you can use the +1$ to buy a nice VP card though, you trash the Duchy.  No loss of VP there.

If you aren't trashing your starting estates with Bishop every single chance you get, well, start.  It nets you 1 VP just like trashing Copper, the difference is the Estate wasn't making any money.

[werothegreat]

Speaking of which, how do you get to the Golden Deck?  I've tried a few times, but never actually got there.

[popsofctown]

Speaking of which, how do you get to the Golden Deck?  I've tried a few times, but never actually got there.

You tell Chapel not to miss the reshuffle.

You need heavy trashing like Chapel, and bad draws can make the Golden Deck pretty slow. 

[werothegreat]

Speaking of which, how do you get to the Golden Deck?  I've tried a few times, but never actually got there.

You tell Chapel not to miss the reshuffle.

You need heavy trashing like Chapel, and bad draws can make the Golden Deck pretty slow.

Just tried that.  5 Provinces at turn 16.

[blueblimp]

Speaking of which, how do you get to the Golden Deck?  I've tried a few times, but never actually got there.

You tell Chapel not to miss the reshuffle.

You need heavy trashing like Chapel, and bad draws can make the Golden Deck pretty slow.

Just tried that.  5 Provinces at turn 16.

IIRC, usually you buy the first Province on turn 9. A quick run did that well for me.

Edit: And again. Although in between I had a game where Chapel missed the shuffle, which slows everything down by 2+ turns.

[DG]

Generally there's something in the kingdom to allow for a modified golden deck. For instance I just played a kingdom on the Goko beta with ambassador, talisman, market square, peddlers, bishop, wandering minstrel. Think that one through.

[RD]

Remember, Bishoping a Province (for -1VP and one less junk card) is about equivalent to Chapeling one Estate (for -1VP and one less junk card), plus $1. So any experienced Dominion player can use that as a benchmark to naively weigh the value of this move: typically fairly decent although maybe a little less impressive late in the game.

I think that viewpoint has some merit, but now, a huge list of caveats (most of which have already been mentioned). Of course you have to consider the opportunity cost for whatever other thing you could have done with that Bishop, which might have been worth positive VP. (Which is pretty important if netting positive VP from Bishop is, you know, your plan for winning the game.) And you also have to consider that Bishop lets your opponent trash a dead card as well, so it might be a wash. So these are fairly compelling arguments against.

On the other hand many decks designed around Bishop are meant to do exactly this. The Golden Deck is of course an extreme example, but not the only one. These decks will choke if they green up to any considerable degree, so Province trashing is of the utmost importance. In other words the "it's just like trashing an Estate" idea remains true, but it's a little misleading because the decks are so finely tuned that trashing an Estate is far more important than it would be in a normal endgame.

[aaron0013]

Provinces are 6 vp not 8.

Ah, yes.  I was kind of in a hurry, just got it corrected!

Thanks for the input.  I also enjoy the golden deck.  I'm afraid I have tried it with insufficient trashing a few too many times, but it is really fun when new opponents figure out you can buy a province every single turn (or a colony which is even more fun!)

I guess I never really thought about Bishoping Province = Trashing Estate.  Very interesting and clears up a few drawbacks that I was thinking of.....except for the fact that you could be Bishoping another card.  But it all depends on your hand.

And that is pretty cool that I am ranked Bishop right now

[Powerman]

Bishop is without a doubt my favorite (and one of my best) cards in the game.  The important thing with Bishop is you just can't... use it as a trasher to build a simple engine (or go BM) and try and buy provinces.  You really can't.

The thing with Bishop (like Goons) is you can really ignore victory cards and come out OK.  Not many decks can easily get 8 provinces, plus because you're getting points cards like remodel won't help them.  Add into this an attack (Preferably rabble, or even bureaucrat) and you almost ALWAYS have a dominant strategy.

Also, depending on what your opponent is doing, the trashing benefit can be a lot less.  The obvious example here is Gardens/SR/Duke/etc., but there are many other decks where this is the case.  CR is down right now so I have no data, but if your opponent uses Chapel (and doesn't go Golden Deck), your bishop will be very unlikely to help them.  Likewise, if they buy a Baron, Counting House, Moneylender, or any number of cards, they won't want to trash out the initial estates and coppers.

Add in great bishop cards like Peddler/Border Village + gainers, and the number of boards is huge.

To answer the question though, YES, bishoping victory cards is good.

[Dulkal]

Also, depending on what your opponent is doing, the trashing benefit can be a lot less.  The obvious example here is Gardens/SR/Duke/etc., but there are many other decks where this is the case.  CR is down right now so I have no data, but if your opponent uses Chapel (and doesn't go Golden Deck), your bishop will be very unlikely to help them.  Likewise, if they buy a Baron, Counting House, Moneylender, or any number of cards, they won't want to trash out the initial estates and coppers.

But all of these examples seem to assume faulty play from the opponent. I would never base my deck around chapel, gardens or dukes against a bishop strategy.

An opponent who relies on free trashing to build engines that would otherwise not be feasible is a much greater risk. Usually, getting 8 provinces is hard. It can get easier if your opponent is helping you grease the engine.

I like bishop too, mostly because it usually gives interesting games, particularly if only one player goes for them.

[Jimmmmm]

Bishop is without a doubt my favorite (and one of my best) cards in the game.  The important thing with Bishop is you just can't... use it as a trasher to build a simple engine (or go BM) and try and buy provinces.  You really can't.

This. I also love Bishop and do quite well with it. I love it when I buy my first Bishop 10+ turns after my opponent does and end up with heaps more VP from it.

[Powerman]

Also, depending on what your opponent is doing, the trashing benefit can be a lot less.  The obvious example here is Gardens/SR/Duke/etc., but there are many other decks where this is the case.  CR is down right now so I have no data, but if your opponent uses Chapel (and doesn't go Golden Deck), your bishop will be very unlikely to help them.  Likewise, if they buy a Baron, Counting House, Moneylender, or any number of cards, they won't want to trash out the initial estates and coppers.

But all of these examples seem to assume faulty play from the opponent. I would never base my deck around chapel, gardens or dukes against a bishop strategy.

An opponent who relies on free trashing to build engines that would otherwise not be feasible is a much greater risk. Usually, getting 8 provinces is hard. It can get easier if your opponent is helping you grease the engine.

I like bishop too, mostly because it usually gives interesting games, particularly if only one player goes for them.

Your opponent is P1 and gets 4/3.  If he opens Moneylender > Bishop, that's not really poor play, is it?  Or he gets a 2/5.  Chapel with 2 is the right play.

[Octo]

I'm no expert, and neither are the players I play with, but sometimes I just buy 2 bishops and see how it goes (trashing the second bishop when the time is right of course). Obviously they risk clashing a lot, but you can get through your cards quickly that way.

One thing to remember is that while chapel is obviously way faster Bishop nets you VPs in the process. So if you eliminate your starting deck entirely with bishops then you're already 13 VPs up before hitting the provinces (16 including the 2nd bishop), which is a pretty sizeable lead (assuming the other guy is not going bishop too) which requires a 3 province difference to overcome.

[Kahryl]

I no longer feel like I understand Bishop at all. In theory, you don't want it early, because you'll just be helping your opponent thin his deck. And you don't want it mid-game because it'll kill your economy. And you don't want it late because trashing Provinces costs you 2VP AND an action point AND a card slot in your immediate hand just to get rid of a dead card. And yet people who just buy Bishops and trash everything in sight often beat me. So what exactly is the proper use of this card? Assume no obvious enablers like Hoard or Chapel.

[popsofctown]

I love when my opponent buys Bishop in a Goons engine game.  For whatever reason they always do that.

Random comment..

[Davio]

I no longer feel like I understand Bishop at all. In theory, you don't want it early, because you'll just be helping your opponent thin his deck. And you don't want it mid-game because it'll kill your economy. And you don't want it late because trashing Provinces costs you 2VP AND an action point AND a card slot in your immediate hand just to get rid of a dead card. And yet people who just buy Bishops and trash everything in sight often beat me. So what exactly is the proper use of this card? Assume no obvious enablers like Hoard or Chapel.

You buy it when you think you can accumulate a bunch of points with it, kind of like with Monument.
It's especially nice in games without +Buy in the endgame, so you can score points by chopping a card and by buying a VP card. Don't think of Bishop in terms of Chapel or Steward, think of it in terms of Develop. The better the card you chop, the better the benefit. Peddler is pretty nice fodder.

[greatexpectations]

I love when my opponent buys Bishop in a Goons engine game.  For whatever reason they always do that.

it is fun on the rare occasion where you can reliably play both in a turn. it is quite satisfying to play bishop after they have discarded from your goons to trash away the coppers you just bought last turn.

[Archetype]

I love when my opponent buys Bishop in a Goons engine game.  For whatever reason they always do that.

it is fun on the rare occasion where you can reliably play both in a turn. it is quite satisfying to play bishop after they have discarded from your goons to trash away the coppers you just bought last turn.

And to make it less likely that your opponent(s) wouldn't use the Bishop's trash from hand ability.

[Kahryl]

I no longer feel like I understand Bishop at all. In theory, you don't want it early, because you'll just be helping your opponent thin his deck. And you don't want it mid-game because it'll kill your economy. And you don't want it late because trashing Provinces costs you 2VP AND an action point AND a card slot in your immediate hand just to get rid of a dead card. And yet people who just buy Bishops and trash everything in sight often beat me. So what exactly is the proper use of this card? Assume no obvious enablers like Hoard or Chapel.

You buy it when you think you can accumulate a bunch of points with it, kind of like with Monument.
It's especially nice in games without +Buy in the endgame, so you can score points by chopping a card and by buying a VP card. Don't think of Bishop in terms of Chapel or Steward, think of it in terms of Develop. The better the card you chop, the better the benefit. Peddler is pretty nice fodder.

Monument is something you buy early and hit over and over. It's good early because it's a terminal silver in addition to a VP fountain. But Bishop is a terminal copper - your economy will stall if you buy it early and accumulate VP early.

[popsofctown]

I love when my opponent buys Bishop in a Goons engine game.  For whatever reason they always do that.

it is fun on the rare occasion where you can reliably play both in a turn. it is quite satisfying to play bishop after they have discarded from your goons to trash away the coppers you just bought last turn.

It had better be the only trasher if you're doing that.. or a late purchase.

Opening Bishop/Silver instead of Salvager/Silver is a death knell.

[Davio]

I no longer feel like I understand Bishop at all. In theory, you don't want it early, because you'll just be helping your opponent thin his deck. And you don't want it mid-game because it'll kill your economy. And you don't want it late because trashing Provinces costs you 2VP AND an action point AND a card slot in your immediate hand just to get rid of a dead card. And yet people who just buy Bishops and trash everything in sight often beat me. So what exactly is the proper use of this card? Assume no obvious enablers like Hoard or Chapel.

You buy it when you think you can accumulate a bunch of points with it, kind of like with Monument.
It's especially nice in games without +Buy in the endgame, so you can score points by chopping a card and by buying a VP card. Don't think of Bishop in terms of Chapel or Steward, think of it in terms of Develop. The better the card you chop, the better the benefit. Peddler is pretty nice fodder.

Monument is something you buy early and hit over and over. It's good early because it's a terminal silver in addition to a VP fountain. But Bishop is a terminal copper - your economy will stall if you buy it early and accumulate VP early.

Well, they're not the same, but if you use the Bishop only a few times, it defeats its purpose a bit.