Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[popsofctown]

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel.
It's simple. Open chapel/something. Trash all your starting coppers and estates. Don't take more than two silver and two golds, and take some action cards (including villages). It's very fast and Adventurer will worth $5 on average.

Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.

Hey, chapel/adventurer is not a BM strategy, it's an engine where you draw always your few treasures, having all the time to buy some markets, spies, lab, etc.

If a single terminal is making 5/8th of your province, I call it a Big Money strategy.

[Stealth Tomato]

And yet the Goko bot keeps buying Adventurers and winning.

This is in pure Base, where the card pool is substantially weaker. It also doesn't win when it has Copper in it (that is, not starting with all goddamn Silver).

[Powerman]

I think this is a card that is very fair, and I would buy it on many more boards without it being overpowered.

Scout   
Action $4   
+1 Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory or Curse cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

[Bill The Cat]

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?

[popsofctown]

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?

It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

[Robz888]

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?

It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

Agreed. Still a weak card, but it probably becomes doable. At $6 it's really just horrid.

[Bill The Cat]

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?

It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

It seems like a cost of 5 would make it pretty comparable to Harvest, i.e. a terminal gold in many decks.  And yeah, Harvest is no hot sauce at 5 either.

I cannot believe that a discussion about Adventurer has drawn me out of my long-time commitment to silent lurking.  Well, hello.  I have spent 1 day 22 hours on this forum, with the sole purpose of staying ahead of my wife in our 10 RL games a week Dominion... uh, habit?  I do not think she knows about this site.  That makes me neutral evil, I think.

[werothegreat]

Could Adventurer be "fixed" by simply making its cost 5?

It'd probably be one of the worst 5's, but it wouldn't be the worst 5.

It seems like a cost of 5 would make it pretty comparable to Harvest, i.e. a terminal gold in many decks.  And yeah, Harvest is no hot sauce at 5 either.

I cannot believe that a discussion about Adventurer has drawn me out of my long-time commitment to silent lurking.  Well, hello.  I have spent 1 day 22 hours on this forum, with the sole purpose of staying ahead of my wife in our 10 RL games a week Dominion... uh, habit?  I do not think she knows about this site.  That makes me neutral evil, I think.

Welcome aboard.  Have you seen the memes thread?

[greatexpectations]

Welcome aboard.  Have you seen the memes thread?

and of course i have to plug the Frequently Asked Questions thread.

[ednever]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

Coming to this party super late.

Funny that just today I played a Transmute game: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/09/game-20121009-173854-b71c3505.html

A piledrive of Transmute, Herbalists, and Vineyards.

That said, it's near the bottom of my list of bad cards:

From worst on up:
Adventurer
Thief
Scout
Saboteur
Transmute

These others are in a different class:
Counting House
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

I've learned to like CH a lot in the right setting. Against MB it's great. With Warehouse it's a lot of fun. The ability to pull out a province out of your hat in some games is very very useful.

Pirate Ship is one of the most under-rated cards. It's bad, but no where near as bad as people think. If there isn't alt-money on the board and there's a way to play more than one per turn, it can shit someone down - even in two-player.

Talisman has so many uses I can't believe it's listed here. From picking up cheap engine components, to driving down piles and going Gardens. It's a great card on many boards.

Explorer is marginal at best, but it can be great in alt-VP games. It's effectively +$2, gain a silver. (Or +$3 gain a gold with province in hand). Much better than people give it credit for.

Cache is only good in specific conditions - usually when you don't mind copper at all - Trader, Apothecary, Gardens, heavy cursing. But in those situations it can be better than Gold.

Stash is just a silver that lets you stack money. The stacking can often get you a guaranteed province every shuffle - which can matter in the end game. Otherwise there are times when you just want a silver for $5 and this is better.

Treasure Map I don't like at all. But I don't think it's that weak. If you can trash or cycle it's a pretty powerful card. Otherwise it's just all about random luck - which is why I don't like it (rather than the fact it's weak)

Ed

[PSGarak]

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

This is a bit heretical, because one of the big parts about scout is re-ordering the top of your deck. But, part of the reason this is a big deal is because the "main" function, thinning VP out of your deck, is so lackluster. So instead: get two dead cards out of your deck, with a decent chance of triggering a reshuffle that they will miss. Or, get those Harems into your hand. Also combos well with Baron and Trash for Benefit cards.

I think that this would still make for an overall weak $4 or ok-ish $3, but the extra dependability makes it more feasible to include in a few combos.

Also, Adventurer is underrated. If you have some decent copper trashing, it's better than Gold on average. Its biggest problem is that it's terminal.

[werothegreat]

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

You mean Rebuild?

[eHalcyon]

This probably isn't going to sound great at first, since people were just ragging on Adventurer, but what if Scout worked like an Adventurer for VP cards?

You mean Rebuild?

Rebuild actually does something with the VP though.


Adventurer-for-VP would not be any better than Scout, I think.  Worse, quite possibly.  Although you guarantee getting two VP into your hand, you are just as likely to skip your good cards.  In the end, I don't think your draw pile is improved on average.

[sandstorm]

Here is my buff for Scout

+1 Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck.
Choose one:
Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand or choose any one revealed action card and place it in your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.


This way it has a choice that fits with the Intrigue theme and the second option allows you to make use of its +1 action.  Its a fairly weak buff but could be situationally powerful in many engines.  It at least removes Scout from the basement tier of Dominion cards.

[Young Nick]

Damn that would make it so good. It would be like playing two Cartographers in a row.

Honestly, Scout sucks, but whatever. If we make Scout better, then people will tirelessly try to make Thief better. If we make Thief better, next thing you know, Witch needs a buff, too.

[WheresMyElephant]

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.

Damn that would make it so good. It would be like playing two Cartographers in a row.

Honestly, Scout sucks, but whatever. If we make Scout better, then people will tirelessly try to make Thief better. If we make Thief better, next thing you know, Witch needs a buff, too.

I could be wrong but I don't think many people are actually planning to houserule Scout. It's just a fun thought exercise.

That said, man ever since Robz' (admittedly hilarious) DA Scout combo suggestions, the Scout hate train has just gotten ridiculous. You can't open a thread around here and not find someone making fun of Scout. I'm as guilty as anyone and sure it's a weak card and it's fun to hate on, but I'll toss you an upvote just for pointing out explicitly that Scout as printed is not the worst thing in the world.

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

[Robz888]

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

[SirPeebles]

Increase the search space enough and Scout will be almost guaranteed to miss the reshuffle, which would be a boon

Actually, that would be interesting.  Perhaps Scout could somehow to aimed more specifically towards gathering together victory cards and then triggering a reshuffle?

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand and discard the other cards. Shuffle your discard pile into your deck.

[werothegreat]

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

[Robz888]

I don't think Develop, Fortune Teller, or Shanty Town belong in this conversation. Develop is the closest, but you can still find use for it. I like it to eek out extra VP by Tunneling, like, Potion into Duchy and Tunnel, or something. Fortune Teller is inessential, but it's still an Attack, and often an annoying one. It's a little stronger than people give it credit for.

But Shanty Town. Shanty Town is by no means a "worst card" contender. It's a cheap lab as long as you don't have any terminals, and hey, that happens. It can be nice to open Shanty Town with Potion or Talisman or Quarry. It is a village, and even weak villages can still be pretty good.

Walled Village is the one I have an irrational opposition toward, but I fully recognize I'm just wrong. It's the worst village, but still not a bad card.

[LastFootnote]

I've actually had several games recently where Shanty Town helped me win. It basically allows you to build an engine without trashing.

[WheresMyElephant]

Man I still say there has got to be good stuff you can do with Walled Village that you can't do with Village. Even if it's just little tweaks like tossing an extra terminal into your BM deck (which of course is generally a disastrous road to go down with Village). Has anyone played with this in the simulators?

Edit: Actually it'd probably be good in things like a Workshop-Gardens rush too. It's basically guaranteed to defuse at least one Workshop collision at which point you'll get an extra $4 card to make up for the turn you spent buying WV; and everything after that is gravy. It looks good if you decide to rush Duchies and Duchesses too. And really any other heavy green-and-Copper strategy where your deck is huge; where you say "I want to buy more terminals because proportionally my terminal density is still pretty low; but numerically I have so many terminals that at some point they're going to bunch together and cause trouble."

[Eevee]

(On the plus side at least Pirate Ship has gotten a break since this started. Maybe it's just in the nature of things that f.ds always needs an official whipping boy.)

Yeah, I'm feeling like Scout's turn is coming to an end though. Next up is definitely Adventurer. Adventurer sucks. Adventurer is the worst.

I find it odd how neither Develop nor Fortune Teller nor even Chancellor have come up yet in this conversation.  Nor Shanty Town.  You know, Shanty Town really is the worst card for me.  Every other card I like having in my deck, or I can find a use for.  But Shanty Town is the card that can fill a required niche on a board, but always ends up being pointless.  You always draw it with one terminal.  That happens with Nobles as well, but Nobles has VP, so stfu.  I like Nobles.  With five Nobles, you can use one for Actions, the next for Cards, and let your next cards decide what you do with the rest.  If you have a hand of five Shanty Towns, just give up.  It's worse than five Rats.  I mean, the idea behind it is a good idea - draw cards if you don't have any Action cards to play off of it.  But in practice it just sucks so much ass.  Really, I don't think I've ever sworn as much at any other card (with something that wasn't an accidental "oh dammit Goko made me trash my Province to Chapel.").

That just means you are playing shanty town very wrong.

Biggest problem with scout imo is that it's in direct competition with the stuff it synergizes with. Sure, a silk road deck would love it some scouts, but when are you going to buy them? Early game you want silver, mid-game you already want the silk roads and when the silk roads are gone you already want estates. Maybe scout should be given for free when you buy an estate or something.

[Stealth Tomato]

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.

The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.

[werothegreat]

What about just increasing the search space to 6 cards and.  leaving everything else unchanged? It buffs the filtering ability, keeps the spirit of the card the same, and if you don't find any Victory cards then you can use the deck reordering to improve your next hand a little. And hey if it still sucks, at least it'll miss so many reshuffles that you hardly notice! Maybe some of the basic Scout combos like Great Hall would get too strong here but honestly I find it a bit hard to imagine. I mean they might be dominant but no stronger than a good Menagerie or something.

The 6th card is a can of worms. If none of the 6 are Victory cards, you have a chance to manipulate the contents of your next hand. It also gives Scout incredible reordering power for a chain-drawing deck (on par with Cartographer). Five is enough.

Not just your next hand.  It gives the potential to play with the hand AFTER that.  Which is insane, and why cards that seek through your deck for a variable amount of cards always discard, rather than put back on your deck.