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[theory]

Or have Counting House choose between all the Coppers in your draw deck or all the Coppers in your discard, but not both.

[NoMoreFun]

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.

Victory cards and cards costing at most $3 less than this that aren't Copper? (poor house...)

One thing I don't like is that Fortune Teller specifies "Victory or Curse", while Rabble has the better "discard actions and treasures".

It doesn't matter much though; there are only 3 action/victory cards (and Dame Josephine) and 1 treasure/victory. This is why Scout is so inept.

[brokoli]

I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...

In the long run, and assuming you have all the expansions, it's not a problem as really the expansions are artificial boundaries. However, in real terms it unnecessarily complicates expansions by mentioning other game features without explaining what they are. In terms of game design that's not very desirable.

Of course, but we know we won't change the official rules... we are all dominion fans who play with all expansions mixed, no ?

[popsofctown]

Lots of other games have patches.  Pretty fun games too.

[AJD]

I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy?

In particular, I think +Buy is good on cards that can give you large amounts of +$, but don't always do so—that way the +buy gives you something to use the money on, if you get the money; and if you don't get the money, the +buy is at least a potentially useful bonus that might make you willing to buy the card in a few more contexts than you would otherwise. Trade Route and Baron are good examples of what I mean.

[werothegreat]

I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy?

In particular, I think +Buy is good on cards that can give you large amounts of +$, but don't always do so—that way the +buy gives you something to use the money on, if you get the money; and if you don't get the money, the +buy is at least a potentially useful bonus that might make you willing to buy the card in a few more contexts than you would otherwise. Trade Route and Baron are good examples of what I mean.

Contrast this with Death Cart - a +Buy would make it way too strong.

[chwhite]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

[werothegreat]

You are not allowed to hate on Pirate Ship.  Saboteur and Adventurer are lower down, but still don't belong on that list.  And Counting House can be pretty damn useful.

[ehunt]

I'm coming around on transmute being better than some other cards, although not nearly as many as on chwhite's list.

If I were going to buff transmute, I'd put a "you may" before all the gains, so that you can use transmute to trash a potion or a copper when you get unlucky and draw it without an estate.

[Robz888]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

[ehunt]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.

[Robz888]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.

I would argue Adventurer and Saboteur are worse than Transmute, mainly because now and then edge cases present themselves where you do want Transmute, or you draw Potion without enough money for something great and you just pick up Transmute. Favorable edge cases for Saboteur come about once in a million games, and Adventurer even less frequently than that.

[werothegreat]

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

Transmute is great later on in Familiar games, it can combo with Vineyards, sometimes if there are other curse-givers and a neat engine to build it can be useful, or with Dukes or other Alchemy-heavy setups... there are ways to make it work.

Anyway, the cards I'd consider worse than Transmute (mind you, this is not counting Dark Ages, which I've barely played- and also keep in mind that DA might boost the Mute a bit too, with stuff like Ruins -> Duchy for instance):
Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

...Okay, I guess that's only eleven.  You could arguably throw Mandarin or PStone in for 12, though they're probably a tiny bit better.

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

adventurer and saboteur are better than transmute. I'll give him Thief, Scout, and possibly Counting House.

I would argue Adventurer and Saboteur are worse than Transmute, mainly because now and then edge cases present themselves where you do want Transmute, or you draw Potion without enough money for something great and you just pick up Transmute. Favorable edge cases for Saboteur come about once in a million games, and Adventurer even less frequently than that.

And yet the Goko bot keeps buying Adventurers and winning.  Also, Highway(or Bridge) and Graverobber(or Rogue) make Saboteur as sweet as honey.

[BubbleBoy]

Scout isn't a useless card, just a niche card. In the rare case that there are useful half-VP cards in a kingdom, or when you are rushing a 3-pile, alt-VP ending, it can give your deck a cheap and powerful drawing boost. But in many games, its value lies not in its ability to pick up useless Victory cards, but in its ability to re-order the deck. If Scout is out on a board with Mystic or Wishing Well, it's almost definitely worthwhile to buy one or two for its indirect drawing bonus, but even if you just have trouble getting your Villages with your Smithies, Scout can help you set up that combo. Also, Scout is a pretty unique card in that it becomes more powerful during the greening stage, slightly dampening the burden that Victory cards place on your deck, so if you have a mid-sized deck and the greening process really hurts you, Scout could be a nice option.

I know this isn't what the OP is asking, but I always feel the need to challenge bad reputations.

[RichardNixon]

Even though we know there's generally no real price difference between $3 and $4, I wonder why Scout costs $4 instead of $3, and if it would be any better at $3.

Would Scout/Island be any good in that scenario? I'd guess not but it's the only appreciable change that leaped out at me.

[LastFootnote]

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

If you're playing games with 3 to 5 Alchemy cards at a time, I'll grant that Transmute could be better than Counting House. If you're playing full random games, there's just no way that's true. I win with Counting House decks far more frequently than I win buying a Potion just for Transmute.

[Robz888]

I'll meet you halfway: I now agree that Scout, Thief, Adventurer, Counting House, and Saboteur are all definitely worse than Transmute.

If you're playing games with 3 to 5 Alchemy cards at a time, I'll grant that Transmute could be better than Counting House. If you're playing full random games, there's just no way that's true. I win with Counting House decks far more frequently than I win buying a Potion just for Transmute.

Well... I think Counting House is definitely the one I was least sure of there. I tend to miss even obvious Counting House strategies. So yeah, I could be wrong there.

[brokoli]

Thief
Scout
Counting House
Adventurer
Pirate Ship
Talisman
Explorer
Saboteur
Cache
Treasure Map
Stash

Mmm. Maybe you are right about the interactions between transmute and Dark ages but... I completely disagree. Saboteur is far better than transmute, it's incredible how this sab is underrated, I win very often with it.
Stash and cache are comparable to silver, and I prefer taking a $5 silver than a transmute.
Explorer ? Underrated.
Pirate Ship, talisman and treasure map ? Quite often viables.
Counting house ? Sometimes very, very good.
Even adventurer is powerful sometimes, when you have two-three silvers/golds in your deck.

So, scout and thief are probably the only ones for which I can agree (and even).

[Robz888]

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

[Dsell]

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Where oh where is council room? I had a 3 player game not too long ago where Chapel-Adventurer was dominant, or seemed to be. I'm no fan of Adventurer, but it has its moments.

[werothegreat]

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel games.  Or Mint or Count games.  Mint is where it probably shines most.  I remember there was one game I was trashing Golds so that my Adventurer always found Platinums.

[Jimmmmm]

As time goes on, I feel myself finding new ways to use the least-appreciated cards. That's what's so wonderful about Dominion. Noawadays I am liable to give Scout a shot, and sometimes I even find it helping me. As I play more games, I learn to rely on specific cards less and less, and I find those special scenarios where even terrible cards can shine. And as I go through this discovery process, and new sets are released, it becomes harder and harder to separate the awful from the merely situational.

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

One card I've had this experience with lately is Coppersmith. I used to rarely if ever buy it, but I've had a couple of games with it and Goons, and add in some decent draw and suddenly you can get a lot more out of those Coppers you really want to buy but without slowing your deck down too much.

[Robz888]

Well, I'm not the world's greatest player, and I have very little experience with Dark Ages. I could be wrong, but I can't remember seeing a board where I said, "Adventurer is dominant here" in... many months, perhaps. And I was playing a lot of Dominion this summer (less now).

Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.

[WheresMyElephant]

Isn't Vagrant pretty much the fixed Scout you're looking for? So, yeah, +1 Card.

[brokoli]

... but the one card for which this is not true is Adventurer. Simply put, I never want Adventurer. My opinion of it only falls over time. When do you have room for a ridiculously expensive terminal non-attack that requires mass-purging of Coppers? Almost never, that's when.

Chapel.
It's simple. Open chapel/something. Trash all your starting coppers and estates. Don't take more than two silver and two golds, and take some action cards (including villages). It's very fast and Adventurer will worth $5 on average.

Chapel/Adventurer exists I know, but still, you have to have like zero strong attacks, zero terminal draw, zero super-duper engine potential... Adventurer is not a good BM card, it's not a good engine card. Explorer is like that too, but Explorer is mercifully cheaper.

Hey, chapel/adventurer is not a BM strategy, it's an engine where you draw always your few treasures, having all the time to buy some markets, spies, lab, etc.