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[werothegreat]

The Scout joke has been done to death at this point, and we all know it's not exactly the best card out there.  So what would make it better?  It couldn't be anything to radically change the intent of the card, which is to scan the top of your deck and put Victory cards into your hand.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.

[werothegreat]

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

[GendoIkari]

The Scout joke has been done to death at this point, and we all know it's not exactly the best card out there.  So what would make it better?  It couldn't be anything to radically change the intent of the card, which is to scan the top of your deck and put Victory cards into your hand.

I think a +1 Card would make all the difference.  This would put it on par with Apothecary, which is only slightly more expensive with an opportunity cost, which is fine, because in most cases Coppers will be much more valuable to you than Estates.

Even though we know there's generally no real price difference between $3 and $4, I wonder why Scout costs $4 instead of $3, and if it would be any better at $3.

One boost that could be interesting would be to make it an Action-Victory card. If giving it 1VP is too powerful, then maybe even 0VP, now that we have a precedence.

[GendoIkari]

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

Deck-into-discard would make it INSANELY powerful! It would be comparable to a terminal +$7; very easy to turn it into a terminal +$8.

[Dsell]

I think scout may actually be ok with most of the above improvements. Action/Victory (0 vp) cantrip that draws victory cards from the top 4 of the deck? That could work, and maybe should even cost $5 due to how well it self-synergizes. It would also be absolutely nuts in all-intrigue games, where scout is already pretty good. But overall that might work.

If only one change is allowed, either the +1 card or the Action/Victory type could be good.

[AJD]

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

It would, as noted. But I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

[werothegreat]

Similarly - does Counting House need an improvement?  I would say not - I actually used it quite effectively in a Beggar game yesterday.  The one problem with CH is when your discard pile is empty.  Would a deck-into-discard option make this card too powerful for its cost?

It would, as noted. But I feel like Counting House could use a +buy, like Trade Route has. It would help those situations where you're pulling 11+ coppers out of the discard pile, and it would make it easier to buy copper as well. I find it hard to believe that +buy would overpower Counting House, but maybe?

A +Buy seems pretty reasonable.  But it does make me think - does every +$ card need a +Buy? 

[NoMoreFun]

All ideas I can think of:
+1 card
Picks up curses
Make it an action/victory or explicitly able to pick up other scouts (in conjunction with the +1 card thing)
Bigger search space (eg top 5 cards)
Lower cost
Add in a reaction, on gain or on trash effect

[DG]

Scout - put ruins, curses, and victory cards into hand.
Counting house - add +1 coin.

[dondon151]

CH could either put Coppers into your hand, or if you did not do so, shuffle CH into your deck during cleanup.

[brokoli]

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.

[SirPeebles]

+1 Card on Scout would make it play quite a bit more like Cartographer.  It would be especially nice if the +1 Card came after drawing off the victory cards and sorting the cards.  But then it might be too powerful.

Counting House would be much nicer with a +1 Buy.  Sure, all +$ cards would like + Buy, but many of them can be paired with other sources of +Buy in a nice engine.  Counting Houses tend to float in a sea of Coppers.  +Buy would mean more Coppers early on, and would even out the randomness.  A Counting House early in a shuffle is wasted, and this isn't currently balanced by that Counting House drawn at the end of your shuffle which gives you $16, but which isn't able to pair with a source of +Buy since.

[Octo]

Counting House could have something like this:

Choose: +2 Cards or [discard 2 cards, +$1, +1 Buy] <-- not all on the card, just chucking a few ideas into the same pot.

The +2 cards needs to be optional otherwise it would break any combos with deck-into-discard. The benefit of +2 cards is not huge, but helps speed up the general play of Counting House perhaps. I'm not sure it needs a serious boost to each time it's played as that would likely become overpowered, so far that reason I'm less sure about things like +1 Buy as that could a really strong effect each time and would help you pick up coppers - I wonder if that would have a bit too much self-synergy.

Scout:

+1 Card sounds fair, but is rather uninspiring - it essentially makes it a worse version of Cartographer (which is really already is I suppose). What about something a bit more controversial like "gain a VP costing less than 5" ? Or increase the number drawn to 5 or even 6?

Eidt : hah, a couple of my ideas got posted while I typed.

[Robz888]

I'll resist the urge to make a joke and instead suggest that perhaps Scout should give you something for drawing Victory cards? Like, "If you drew any cards into your hand this way, +$1." I think +$1 per card drawn into your hand would be too powerful. But I don't know. This is Scout we're talking about.

[LastFootnote]

I think the cleanest change to Scout would be to give it a flat +$1. +1 Card would make it too powerful for a $4 card, on par with Cartographer. Increasing its search range would make it take much longer to resolve. Having it put Curses into your hand would also be a nice change, making it useful in a different kind of game than it's normally used in.

Scout:

+1 Card sounds fair, but is rather uninspiring - it essentially makes it a worse version of Cartographer (which is really already is I suppose).

Worse? In any game with a sifter (Cellar, Warehouse), it's a much better version of Cartographer. Cartographer can't increase your hand size.

What about something a bit more controversial like "gain a VP costing less than 5" ? Or increase the number drawn to 5 or even 6?

Looking at the next 5 cards would slow things down, but looking at the next 6 cards is right out. If you don't reveal any Victory cards, you might be deciding which of these 6 cards goes into the hand after your next hand? No thanks.

[Insomniac]

I think that scout picking up ruins and shelters would be better. I think Vagrant is essentially good Scout on most boards and it costs 2 less.

If Scout Cantriped it would probably be playable on a lot of boards. If Scout picked up Ruins and Shelters it would be playable on Dark ages boards.

If Scout Cantripped and picked up ruins and shelters I feel it would probably be buyable on many boards.

[chwhite]

Make it Action-Victory (for 0 VP), let it pick up Curses, and look at the top 5 cards instead.  Maybe drop it down to $3 and stick with just the top 4.

That should make it playable a reasonable percentage of the time.  Doesn't need to be a power card.

...

I really like the idea of giving Counting House +Buy, I'm a little surprised that hasn't been mentioned before to my knowledge.  It makes sense, given that I want a +Buy on Adventurer, too, and those cards are surprisingly similar in a number of ways (expensive terminals that do nothing but give you a potentially great but often unreliable amount of Treasure).

[chwhite]

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.

Transmute doesn't need those things to be a useful card.  I think adding +1 Action would be a nice buff, but the 'Mute already has more utility than probably a dozen cards or so.

[chwhite]

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.  It would be sort of like Salvager giving +$2 for Potion in the cost of the trashed card.  I guess thematically it'd make some sense for Scout to get Hovel and Necropolis, but as long as we're not going to let Baron discard an Overgrown Estate that should probably not happen.

[Captain_Frisk]

Various ideas :

For Scout :
- Can pick up curses and ruins
- Cost $3
- Reveal 5 cards insted of 4 (but even...)

For counting house :
- +1 buy
- Discard your hand and draw from 0 to 4 cards in hand before you take the coppers.
- +$1
- You may gain a copper before you look through your discard pile

For transmute (yes) :
- +$1
- +1 card

But I agree that counting house don't especially need modification.

Transmute doesn't need those things to be a useful card.  I think adding +1 Action would be a nice buff, but the 'Mute already has more utility than probably a dozen cards or so.

Wow!  The best thing I can say about 'mute is that its an ok pickup on t3/t4 when you miss your familiar buy.

I'd be very interested to see your list of 12 cards with lesser utility.

[brokoli]

Also, I don't particularly like the idea of Scout picking up Ruins and Shelters.  It would be useful for power balance in an all-random setup, but it just feels wrong for a card to refer to things that only work with specific other expansions.  It would be sort of like Salvager giving +$2 for Potion in the cost of the trashed card.  I guess thematically it'd make some sense for Scout to get Hovel and Necropolis, but as long as we're not going to let Baron discard an Overgrown Estate that should probably not happen.

In fact I really like the idea of salvager giving +$2 for potion.
I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...

[NoMoreFun]

I'm really liking the idea of both +$1, and making Scout a victory card. Makes it a self comboing beast; Minion Jr. perhaps.

[Octo]

I really don't see where is the problem with a card that refer to other expansions ...

In the long run, and assuming you have all the expansions, it's not a problem as really the expansions are artificial boundaries. However, in real terms it unnecessarily complicates expansions by mentioning other game features without explaining what they are. In terms of game design that's not very desirable.

[NoMoreFun]

Transmute: When you gain this, +1 buy.

You can't make a run on the pile because it's hard to get enough potions in play. You may not always want the transmute if you've got the potion because it's a terminal (similar to duchess). Also you can get an extra benefit out of the unpopular "trash a treasure for a transmute" option.

[werothegreat]

Idea for Counting House:

"Look through your discard pile.  If there are 5 or fewer cards in it, discard the top 5 cards of your deck.  Reveal any number of Coppers from your discard, and put them in your hand."