Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Trash feodum  (Read 6747 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1119
  • Respect: +786
    • View Profile
Trash feodum
« on: October 07, 2012, 06:30:40 pm »
0

If you don't buy feodum for victory points, it's sometimes very beneficial to trash it.
I had an interesting game with Border village + Apprentice. With this combo it's easy to draw the whole deck.
So I bought feodum, trashing hovel. The next turn I trashed the feodum with apprentice. Gaining 3 silvers that I drawn during the same turn.
Logged

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +690
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 10:31:10 pm »
0

I've never bought it for exclusively for the Silver pinata, but a good way to do it would be to buy one with a Watchtower in hand.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 05:15:54 am »
0

I've never bought it for exclusively for the Silver pinata, but a good way to do it would be to buy one with a Watchtower in hand.
Watchtower on its own is super crazy with Dark Ages. :)
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

RD

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Respect: +70
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2012, 10:17:36 pm »
0

Even if you ARE playing Feodum for points (and especially if your opponent is not; which fortunately they sort of have to telegraph) trashing it for the Silver can often make sense. If you expect a 6-2 split then trashing one Feodum is worth 5VP minus the value of the trashed card. That's probably a positive shift even before you factor in the value of the Silver itself, and whatever other benefit you might have gotten from the card that trashed the Feodum, either of which can well be worth points in the end.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 10:19:33 pm by RD »
Logged

Insomniac

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 785
  • Respect: +392
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 05:06:56 pm »
0

Even if you ARE playing Feodum for points (and especially if your opponent is not; which fortunately they sort of have to telegraph) trashing it for the Silver can often make sense. If you expect a 6-2 split then trashing one Feodum is worth 5VP minus the value of the trashed card. That's probably a positive shift even before you factor in the value of the Silver itself, and whatever other benefit you might have gotten from the card that trashed the Feodum, either of which can well be worth points in the end.

Unless you are going to run out the silver piles you should always trash exactly half of the feodums you buy. If you have an odd amount it is equal whether you trash Floor(n/2) or Ceiling(n/2) so in this particular case it depends whether you want deck efficiency, or more points (normally I trash Floor(n/2))
Logged
"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

RD

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Respect: +70
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 09:46:21 pm »
0

Would you mind deriving that for me?

I don't see how it can hold in general. If you're going to have 24 Silvers without any Feodum trashing, then each Feodum is worth 8VP. If you then trash one of your eight Feodums you're losing 8VP and gaining only 7 (by incrementing the value of the other 7).

If that number of Silvers seems unrealistic to you, consider 15 Silvers and four Feodums for the pre-Feodum-trashing tally. Again, trashing a Feodum is worth -1VP.

(Of course the Silvers have utility that these calculations don't take into account, but I don't really see how you can account for this and come out with such a concrete rule as yours.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 09:54:10 pm by RD »
Logged

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2017
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 08:11:58 am »
0

If you have f Feodums and s lots of 3 Silvers, then your total points (from Feodums) is p = fs. If we keep f + s constant (as does trashing a Feodum with >= 3 Silvers left), then the maximum value of p is when f = s (or s +- 1 if f + s is odd). Otherwise, we want to increase the lower value. So if s < f - 1, then trashing a Feodum will increase p, and if s = f - 1, p will remain constant.

tl;dr If you have less than 3 Silvers per Feodum then trashing a Feodum will result in your score staying the same or increasing.
Logged

PSGarak

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +160
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 11:25:55 am »
+2

Your math is correct. However, the implication that you should trash half your Feodums requires the assumption that Feodums are your only source of Silver. That is unlikely to be the case. For example, if you split the Feodums 6-2 and have 12 silvers from other sources, your math says to trash 1 Feodum, not 3.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 02:35:00 pm »
0

Most games do not have such reliable Silver-gainers that you can expect to have 12 Silvers without Feodum trashing...
Logged

WheresMyElephant

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 02:47:31 pm »
0

Most games do not have such reliable Silver-gainers that you can expect to have 12 Silvers without Feodum trashing...

It's just an example to show the faulty assumptions here; I don't think the exact number 12 is important. Surely the point is, if we're going to such lengths to maximize Feodum points we will probably buy or gain some other source of Silver. Even 6 Silvers not gained from Feodum are enough to invalidate the original formula.

Besides which, Silver-gainers may be rare but they surely also represent some of the cases when Feodum is strongest. I mean, most games don't have a Workshop or Ironworks either, but if we're talking about how best to maximize Gardens points then these cases probably deserve consideration.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:49:16 pm by WheresMyElephant »
Logged

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2017
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 09:04:10 pm »
0

Played a 3-player game IRL yesterday and ended up with 11 Feodums and 18 Silvers. The other important cards were Workshop, Hermit, Fishing Village and Wharf. The Silver pile ran out before I could even consider trashing a Feodum.
Logged

clb

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 09:32:27 pm »
0

Played a 3-player game IRL yesterday and ended up with 11 Feodums and 18 Silvers. The other important cards were Workshop, Hermit, Fishing Village and Wharf. The Silver pile ran out before I could even consider trashing a Feodum.
You had 11 of 12 Feoda, but yet everyone else was running the silver pile, too?
Hermit would be a great Feodum trasher as it can pick up a free silver and more easily find your Feodum.
Logged

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1762
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2017
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 04:13:40 am »
0

Yeah, both my opponents were pretty new. They had a moment of "Ohhh, that's why he's been getting so many Silvers!", but didn't do much to deter me.
Logged

yuma

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 695
  • Respect: +609
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 10:29:49 pm »
0

Had a really interesting game--no log though--involving feodum, Steward, Grand Market and a whole bunch of silver.

I am not sure if it was the best strategy, but it worked well enough.

I actually opened Feodum/Steward. Trashed feodum for the 3 silvers once they collided, turn 4 I think. Trashed all my coppers and estates with steward. Bought 8 of 10 Grand Markets with my silvers, bought Grand Markets and the occassional plus +$2 from Steward. I then used my multiple buys to buy up to six silvers a turn, emptied the silver pile and the feodum pile and ended up with 7 ten point feodums.
Logged

Zaphod

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
  • Do you know where your towel is?
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Trash feodum
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2012, 01:59:44 pm »
0

We played a game recently with Feodum and Trader, just to see what would happen.  Let's just say, the Silver pile ran out very quickly.

I think it would be even more interesting with Rogue or Graverobber in the set.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.044 seconds with 20 queries.