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Author Topic: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.  (Read 3026 times)

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Captain Stupendous

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Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« on: October 06, 2012, 08:17:37 pm »
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(modified to reflect lack of +1 Action)
So, I saw the other thread about breaking the -1 buy rule, so I figured I'd post my card that has -1 buy :P

KING'S ROAD, action, $6 (maybe 7?)
-1 buy
-------
While this card is in play, all cards cost -$3.

My defense for this card having -1 buy comes from Highway. Without a source of +buy or cards that care about the cost of other cards, market is strictly superior (I know that saying that phrase in this community is dangerous :P) to highway. In fact, under those circumstances, highway becomes almost brokenly underpowered, basically becoming a peddler, which Donald has confirmed is worth around $4. Almost never will you want to buy a $4 cost card over a $5 cost card, although granted it could occur. Just as without a source of +buy or gain a card up to X card highway is grossly underpowered, King's Road relies on one of those two cards as well. However, with one of those two relatively common types of cards, I think King's Road would be fun and powerful, but not overly so. Again, this card has not been tested so I'd love to hear everyone else's opinions!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:30:56 pm by Captain Stupendous »
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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 09:25:26 pm »
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This card exhibits HUGE amounts of fancy balance syndrome.

Without a source of +buy or gaining, this is totally worthless. Like, literally, you play this, your entire turn is null and void.
With a source of +buy, it's crazy. Firstly you need to fix the wording, as it currently stands, you make all cards have a cost of precisely -$3, that is, whenever you buy any card, you can spend an additional $3 this turn (in essence, that means everything becomes free). But secondly, nonterminally dropping cost by $3? You'd need, like, two of these and a few extra buys and suddeny everything is becoming stupid price. Three of them and you get free Provinces.

So in many games, the card is worthless, in many others, it's just a race to see who can get them together with their source of +buy, and there's very little in between.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Powerman

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 12:06:19 am »
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The best way to "break" the -1 buy rule would be something like this:

Collector
$6 Action
Choose 2:
+ 2 Buys; or +1 Card, + 1 Action; or - 1 Buy, + $3; or all cards cost $1 less (But not less than 0)

Obviously the values would have to change, but the card itself needs to have a way of + Buy / + Gain.
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Captain Stupendous

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 12:52:19 am »
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Hey there, thanks for the replies and the honest criticism! I think that King's Road would probably work better without the +action; then in order to use it effectively you'd have to have built a strong village/+buy deck. As to it being worthless without a source of +buy or gainer, I'm okay with that because isn't highway nearly worthless without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost as well? As to it being overpowered, I think that the absence of a +action will help remedy it, and for $6 (I'm thinking of boosting it to $7) it needs to be something that you can build your engine around. Also, while three of them may get you free provinces, you will also need to get +3 buys in order to get one province, which is possible, but the -buy does make it a lot more difficult to eat up all the provinces than a strong bridge deck. All this being said, I haven't playtested this card at all, so I could just be dead wrong. I also liked Powerman's idea, and I'd be interested in seeing a card that fleshed his idea out more fully.
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AJD

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 12:58:43 am »
+1

Hey there, thanks for the replies and the honest criticism! I think that King's Road would probably work better without the +action; then in order to use it effectively you'd have to have built a strong village/+buy deck. As to it being worthless without a source of +buy or gainer, I'm okay with that because isn't highway nearly worthless without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost as well?

No, Highway is worth $4 without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost. There's a big difference between $4 and $5, but having Highway still benefits your deck. This is actually worthless in that situation.
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Captain Stupendous

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 09:18:57 am »
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No, Highway is worth $4 without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost. There's a big difference between $4 and $5, but having Highway still benefits your deck. This is actually worthless in that situation.

True. Maybe you're right, this card might belong better in Dominion: The Dustbin (of Dead Variants).
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alex

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 09:19:24 am »
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Hey there, thanks for the replies and the honest criticism! I think that King's Road would probably work better without the +action; then in order to use it effectively you'd have to have built a strong village/+buy deck. As to it being worthless without a source of +buy or gainer, I'm okay with that because isn't highway nearly worthless without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost as well?

No, Highway is worth $4 without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost. There's a big difference between $4 and $5, but having Highway still benefits your deck. This is actually worthless in that situation.

On the other hand, Conspirator is actually worthless in a game with no +Actions (strictly worse than Silver). Granted no +Buys comes up more often than no +Actions, but nonetheless just because a card is worthless in some situations doesn't automatically disqualify it from consideration. I would be interested to hear some results if anyone does playtest this card.
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AJD

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 09:30:07 am »
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Hey there, thanks for the replies and the honest criticism! I think that King's Road would probably work better without the +action; then in order to use it effectively you'd have to have built a strong village/+buy deck. As to it being worthless without a source of +buy or gainer, I'm okay with that because isn't highway nearly worthless without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost as well?

No, Highway is worth $4 without a source of +buy or card that cares about the cost. There's a big difference between $4 and $5, but having Highway still benefits your deck. This is actually worthless in that situation.

On the other hand, Conspirator is actually worthless in a game with no +Actions (strictly worse than Silver).

That doesn't make it worthless; it makes it worth about $2. (I do take your overall point, though.)
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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 12:35:24 pm »
+1

All cards have games where they're worth very little, but very few have cases where they're basically a dead card in your deck, and those are extremely rare (Throne Room with absolutely no actions for example). The trick is to make sure the card is not worthless too often, but also not dominating when it is valuable.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

rinkworks

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 03:23:20 pm »
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As has been pointed out, you're overstating how much less powerful Highway is in a kingdom with no +Buys.  It's not at all uncommon to buy a Highway with $5, even when you lack +Buy.  Unless your deck is a wreck, it's usually going to be better than a Silver, and it's not all that uncommon (though decidedly less common) to buy a Silver with $5.

In the majority of games, there are key $5 cards you need to get as early as possible.  But it's not always the case that you want to rush them, either.  After a single Witch, maybe two, buying more Witches actually harms your deck.  A Highway, on the other hand, is a welcome consolation prize for not hitting $6.

Conspirator is, at its worst, less worthwhile at its cost, because Silver is almost always better than an unactivated Conspirator, which costs more.  But the percentage of boards with no +Action cards is SO tiny.  I thought I remembered seeing some math on the subject, and I think it's less than 1% of all random boards.  That might be a phantom memory, but I am pretty sure that's correct by a safe margin anyhow.  In contrast, boards without +Buy are quite common by design.

So yeah, on many boards, this is a card you would never ever buy, not even as a consolation prize, because it would actively harm your deck.  And that's something of a problem.  You could make it really powerful IF activated to try to counterbalance that, but rather than having a balancing effect, it would actually just make it overpowered on some boards, underpowered on the rest, and never precisely right.  Which is the reason why there's an unofficial "no -1 buy" rule in the first place.  I kind of think that's where this card falls.
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vintermann

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Re: Another way to break the -1 buy rule.
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 07:37:22 am »
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It's not at all uncommon to buy a Highway with $5, even when you lack +Buy.  Unless your deck is a wreck, it's usually going to be better than a Silver, and it's not all that uncommon (though decidedly less common) to buy a Silver with $5.

If you have a lot of dead draw potential in your deck (+card but no +actions) then highway becomes worse - potentially worse than silver if there's no +buy or gainers. But a deck isn't necessarily wrecked just because it has many opportunities to draw dead.

Gainers and other care-about-cost cards is the other thing the proposed King's road helps with. A set without +buy or anything that cares about cost is quite rare, but yes, in those sets the card would be a no-brainer no-buy. On the other hand, with even a lowly workshop it becomes pretty broken. -3 cost for one cantrip is too much.
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