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Author Topic: Overcoming Adversity  (Read 2179 times)

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Young Nick

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Overcoming Adversity
« on: September 30, 2012, 05:08:15 pm »
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I played a game yesterday against The Laughing Storm. The kingdom was Bank, Baron, Cellar, Familiar, Fishing Village, Mandarin, Outpost, Potion, Spy, Tribute, and Woodcutter.

Going second in a Familiar game is bad enough as is. We both opened Fishing Village/Potion, which in retrospect probably should have been Silver/Potion. My Potion came turn 5, so I already knew I was in trouble. Knowing this, I figure that if I am looking at 5 Coppers on turn 4, I ought to pick up an Outpost to help cycle my deck faster to make up for the late Familiar. For similar reasons, I pick up three Cellars by the start of my seventh turn.

Still, though, my deck is noticeably worse due to his turn 8 Bank. Yet with dedicated Cellar cycling and Outpost play, I manage to win the Curse split 6-4. Still, his economy is so much better. He gets his two Gold on turns 10 and 11, while mine are on 16 and 18.

Somehow, through all of this, I come out with the win. Fishing Villages piled out early (he took 8(!) of them) and VP piles started to run. I see this, and have to screw around with the PDR and even the PER (acronyms = PPR for lesser VP cards) to avoid ending the game with fewer VP's on my turn. Luckily, he does not attack the Estates as aggressively as he should.

In my penultimate turn, I take the second-to-last Estate with $6 and play an Outpost. Down five, I know I can't simply take the last Duchy and lose. Even if I buy the Estate and buy a Duchy on the Outpost turn, I still will lose by one. So I figure I have to play for the Province:

(Young Nick drains the jumper as he draws: a Province, a Cellar, and an Estate.)

  Young Nick drains the jumper as he's extra turn (from Outpost)
   Young Nick drains the jumper as he plays a Cellar.
   ... getting +1 action.
   ... discarding 2 cards.
   ... drawing 2 cards.
   Young Nick drains the jumper as he plays a Gold and a Silver.
   Young Nick drains the jumper as he buys a Mandarin.
   ... putting a Gold and a Silver back on the deck (in some order).
   (Young Nick drains the jumper as he draws: a Gold, 2 Silvers, and 2 Coppers.)

The Mandarin purchase pays off as well as it could, as long as my opponent can't muster the final Estate and 3-pile. Fittingly, he had just $1 and did nothing as I bought the last Province for a stunning come-from-behind victory.

PPE: Yeah, I guess buying that penultimate Estate didn't help me at all, seeing as I needed the Province either way and it could have allowed for the 3-pile loss, but that is not the point. The point is using Mandarin effectively and super-cycling to win the Curse split.
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DWetzel

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 06:51:24 pm »
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8 Fishing Villages + Bank <<< 8 Silvers + Bank, imo  Especially when there's really no +draw (erm, Tribute, sorta) and a bunch of curses.  I think I prefer Gold to Bank, honestly.

I wonder whether Spy instead of Outpost serves a similar purpose for cycling.  Maybe not.  Cellars are pretty obviously a good buy.
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Young Nick

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 07:45:59 pm »
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Spy is 1 or 2 cards and Outpost is a guarantee of 3. Whether Outpost turns will on average be useful enough to justify the purchase is unclear.

Agreed on the FV/Bank thing though. I noticed this in game but forgot to mention it. In my position, though, I think that Bank is probably slightly better than Gold. Then again, with the Cellar/Outpost decreasing hand sizes, maybe not.

And yeah, Tribute is no good here with so many Curses and actions.
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Rabid

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 08:26:16 pm »
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Nice comeback and end game tricks :)

Seeing as you both have very few terminals I would have thought Silver to be better than Fishing Village?

I find bank to be better than gold on a lot of boards.
In this game it gets played for 3, 3, 3, 2 (missed Duchy), 4 but total 9, 2, 2, 3, 3.
Only mattered once, but it could well have made the difference.

I think the default should be Gold over bank unless bank has support:
Colony, + buy with large hands, Cost 7 is needed (Upgrade),
Basically the only hand you can get where bank is better is Bank + CCCC.
But Bank + silver cant buy a duchy, and if you have any sources of action +coin even more reason to go for Gold.
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DWetzel

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 09:52:30 pm »
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Basically the only hand you can get where bank is better is Bank + CCCC.

Or Bank + CCS + Green.  Or, junk involving potions.

But, yeah.  Basically for Bank to be better you need three treasures out of your four other cards, and in a game with no trashing, curses, and no draw, that's just not a likely ratio.

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Rabid

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 08:20:40 am »
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Oops I missed, Bank + SCC.
And also Bank+Bank+Silver, and triple bank.
I'll try to do some sims tonight.
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DG

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 09:20:43 am »
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This might make a good sim challenge kingdom.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 09:23:07 am »
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And also Bank+Bank+Silver, and triple bank.
I'll try to do some sims tonight.
Neither of those are better than Gold, though.
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Rabid

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Re: Overcoming Adversity
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 01:04:23 pm »
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Sorry I meant:
And also I missed Bank+Bank+Silver, and triple bank from the hands where bank is worse than gold.

Guess my instinct was wrong for pure big money, sims give Bank the edge by about 10%.

In curse heavy or action $ games it is obviously bad.
But I guess I need to start buying Bank more often on Big Money boards.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:20:59 pm by Rabid »
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