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Author Topic: Request: Remodel  (Read 19172 times)

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Superdad

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2011, 11:10:12 am »
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I think there are two important parts with remodel.

1) Never buy a lot of them (1 is most often the correct number)
2) It is best when there are good cards at all dollar values. This is important, because remodel is best when your hands are flexible.

To expand on point #2:

Lets say a "good" kingdom is:
$2 Pawn, or hamlet, or cellar
$3 Silver is good enough here, but better $3's like fishing village would help.
$4 Caravan (for example)
$5 Laboratory (for example)
$6 Gold is good enough here
$7 Expand (for example)


a) If there is no good $2:
Now your hands of CCCCR are really bad. You'd rather have a copper instead of that remodel so you could buy a lab, and would certainly rather have bought a silver so you could gain a gold here.

a) If there is no good $3:
Unlikely, there is always at least silver

a) If there is no good $4:
This is obviously bad because you cannot remodel estates into a $4. You have to remodel them into a $3 (silver), which is still okay, but slower nonetheless. Possibly the worst thing about not having a good $4 is that you'll fall into the trap of remodelling an estate into a remodel (i.e. the trap of gaining too many remodels). This is exaggerated even further if the good $5 is a terminal action, since you'll clog yourself. If the $5 is a lab, gaining a second remodel isn't the end of the world, but gaining more than 2 remodels is probably a net-negative.

However, this is also vitally important for another reason. Remodel decks will play with 3-card hands on remodel turns, and those 3 cards generally tend to produce $4 quite often (i.e. remodel/estate/copper/copper/copper or remodel, estate, estate, silver, copper).

Having no good $4 to buy (besides remodel itself) is crucial. For this reason, a good $4 is probably the single most important thing, even more than a good $2.

a) If there is no good $5:

This is critical, because of a few reasons. First, you cannot remodel silvers into a solid $5, and remodel decks will buy quite a few silvers with their 3-card hands.

Secondly, your remodel turns that produce $5 with three cards (silver/silver/copper) in the midgame are that much worse.

Imagine a hand like Remodel, Estate, Silver, Silver, Copper. If there was a good 4 and 5, you could remodel the estate into caravan and buy a lab. If there is no good $5, you are forced gaining two caravans, which again, it's not terrible, but it's weaker.

You can always buy duchies here, but that's generally sub-par at this point (midgame) of the game.

a) If there is no good $6:
Again, gold is good enough here.

a) If there is no good $7:
Now you cannot remodel your $5s into Expands. For example, having the ability to take a Gold/Gold/Silver/Lab/Remodel hand and buy a province and expand is pretty huge, especially on a board wihtout +buy. These types of hands will start popping up in the endgame, and your $5 is not going to help you do anything, since you already have $9, so gaining value out of it here is great.  That expand you just gained will allow you to gain a virual +buy on this board that could be critical to reaching a 5-3 province split.

If the $7 is a kings court, a king's courted remodel is pretty darn solid for obvious reasons, especially on the last turn of the game where you can potentially gain 3 VP cards in 1 turn by converting your lesser treasure/actions into VP.

Access to a good $7 is nowhere near as important as having a good option at 2, 4 and 5, but it's still a factor.

For colony games, without a good $7, you cannot remodel a $7 into a platinum. But then again, I think that remodel is going to be sub-par in colony games.




In summary, I think the thing that remodel wants the most is to have solid options at each dollar value, so that your hands are as flexible as possible. This is mostly important in the $2, $4 and $5 range (less so for $3, $6 and $7).

And again, this is for two reasons... firstly, because it's important to be flexible on what you remodel something into (to give all your remodels flexibility on both what they gain and in what they remodel). But also secondly, to be flexible on what you spend your 3-card turns buying. If there's no good $4 card, and you draw Remodel, Estate, Copper, Silver, Copper, you have a sub-part turn where you are likely gaining two $3s, whereas if you bought silver instead of your remodel here, you could have gained a gold instead.

Gaining two quality $4s here beats gaining a gold (taking into account not drawing the estate any more), but gaining two $3's is worse (at least I would think, even considering losing the estate from your deck). Regardless, gaining two $4's is maximizing the power of the strategy, so being flexible and having good options, especially at 2, 4, and 5 is super important for remodel.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 11:24:35 am by Superdad »
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DG

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2011, 12:13:50 pm »
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Quote
Now you cannot remodel your Labs into Expands. For example, having the ability to take a Gold/Gold/Silver/Lab/Remodel hand and buy a province and expand is pretty huge, especially on a board wihtout +buy.

A big problem with upgrades, remakes, and remodels is that in the mid game you don't want to be trashing useful cards rather than playing them. If you're going to use an expensive card, like that expand, just once more in the game then perhaps you'd be no worse using that lab twice rather than an expand once. There's no real problem if there is no 7 cost card in a kingdom with remodel.


Upgrades and remakes are strengthened a lot by 7 cost cards as you can then go through 6-7-8 to get to provinces.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 12:16:07 pm by DG »
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Epoch

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2011, 03:10:10 pm »
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I've masqueraded provinces before, on purpose, and have been in situations where chapeling them would have been the right play...There are circumstances(ahead 5-0, mostly)

I think that in greater than 99.9% of all cases, if you're 5-0 on Provinces, you've already won the game.

In the other 0.1% of all cases, likely your opponent is challenging your score presently (with, say, Colonies or non-conventional Victory cards) in which case lowering your score is rarely the right way to go.

The case where you're 5-0 on Provinces, and your opponent has a low score, but they have the potential to suddenly blast into victory if you don't end the game promptly...  well, I'm not going to say it's never happened, but damn, it's a pretty small corner case.
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Epoch

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2011, 03:20:48 pm »
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Recently, after 8 or so games of Dominion, I came to the realization that the 10 starting cards are BAD cards, and the faster you can get rid of them, the better off you'll be. I think the extreme case of this is Chapel, which gets rid of these cards super-fast and is recognized as a game-changer.

Congratulations on making this realization!  It's maybe the first really important not-very-obvious thing to understand about Dominion.  Nobody figures it out instantly, and it's a very big deal.

(The other not-very-obvious important realization is that you want a LOT fewer terminal actions than you initially think.  The third may be that Villages are only good to the extent that they can enable other cards).
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rod-

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2011, 04:37:20 pm »
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The case where you're 5-0 on Provinces, and your opponent has a low score, but they have the potential to suddenly blast into victory if you don't end the game promptly...  well, I'm not going to say it's never happened, but damn, it's a pretty small corner case.
It's a much smaller corner case when there is more than one opponent and more than 8 provinces.
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Epoch

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2011, 04:51:24 pm »
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It's a much smaller corner case when there is more than one opponent and more than 8 provinces.

Fair enough!  Like most people here, I think, I tend to view Dominion exclusively through the 2-player lens.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Request: Remodel
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2011, 03:10:14 pm »
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I think it is usually a mistake to open Remodel.  I have tried that route many times and I have given up on it, it is just too slow and allows for more toss-up games.  Instead, when I buy them at all, it is usually mid-late game and I am looking to either turn Golds to Provinces or Remodel the Provinces themselves on the last two passes to end the game and avoid a complete stall.
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