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Author Topic: Feedback needed: Define card categories  (Read 9627 times)

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PSGarak

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 12:12:21 am »
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I tend to categorize cards by strategic impact, rather than strict mechanical definitions. For example, I consider a "village" to be something that lets you play a lot of actions and generally build an action-heavy engine. Given this, I might lump Golem or Throne Room in this category on some boards, while the $5 villages like Festival I tend to exclude, because their price (usually) means they don't enable engines in the same way.

I think of Baron primarily as a "Slingshot" or "Boost" card that will help nab me a super-important $5-$7 as early as possible. I will usually buy it if I think using it once, and being saddled with a dead card for the rest of the game, is a worthwhile trade-off. Mining Village is also in this category, with a lower trade-off. I don't have much experience with Death Cart, but I imagine it can fill this need when available, although it may not be the primary function.

I have a category for cards that let you rapidly assemble engines by getting large numbers of low- and mid-cost components, instead of small numbers of high-cost cards. This includes most +buy, some gaining (especially cost-limited gain like Ironworks), all cost-reduction, and a few trash-for-benefit cards (especially remodel).

I split trashing into high-impact and low-impact. High-impact is Chapel: You lost your ability to do anything that turn. Low-impact is Spice Trader, or Money Lender: You only trash one copper at a time, but you can have a decent turn while doing it. Some trashing is actually positive-impact, like Trade Post and Apprentice. High-impact trashing involves more decision-making, and you have to make sure you have a way of getting value into your deck while your trashing, while low-impact trashing can work in the background.

There are some cards that I simply think of as combo cards, where you need to line them up properly in order to make them work. They're not always "combos" in the tradition sense of two or three interacting kingdom cards, it's just that you need to handle them carefully and bend your deck around them in order to maximize their potential. If there's any defining characteristic for them, it's that: they require set-up, and if you just dump them in a regular deck you'll get little benefit (and might be actively harmed). Coppersmith, Poor House, Minion, and Mint are all good examples: they're not at their best in a standard big-money deck, but they can be awesome when wielded appropriately.
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jomini

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 02:56:48 am »
+2

There are two high level approaches that I could see taking with categorizing Dominion cards:
I. The functional approach (what does it do for me).
II. The mechanistic approach (how does it do whatever it does).

The first approach will put together cards like baron and harvest. Both use very different mechanisms, but they often can be swapped around in an engine. The second will link baron with xroads and maybe vault - all of them use green cards for benefit. The mechanistic approach is useful; building a green tolerant engine with something like xroads/baron/vault makes sense - just like harvest/menage makes sense. However, for card comparisons, I think it is more important to focus on the functional stuff - we don't really know what cool new mechanisms will come out and there is just so much overlap that it gets crazy.


So for the functional approach I see few basic functions that are common to a lot of dominion games:
1. Deck acceleration - get through your deck faster for greater effect.
2. Payout - cards that provide coins (treasure, action-cash, or functional equivalent like HoP) to buy deck components.
3. Payload - cards that provide VP (either chips or straight VP).
4. Action balance - cards that increase the number of terminal actions you can play ("villages" and other stuff like Tr/Golem/Prssn)
5. Multiplicity - cards that allow you to acquire more than one card per turn (+buy, gainers, possession, etc.)
6. Time buy - cards that slow down your opponent (and perhaps you, though not as much). This would include most attacks but also things like embargo, possession (in high level play), etc.
7. VP denial - cards that reduce your opponent's VP.

Deck acceleration:
Here I would look at four big subclasses; to some degree these can be swapped out for similar effect: trashing, drawing, cycling and sifting. If some other card goes into the trash that you'd like to go there, it is a trasher (e.g. chap, loan, Prssn). Drawing cards would be all those that tend to result in your hands getting bigger this would include the easy stuff like lab and smithy, but also conditional drawing (like menage, apothecary, Oge) and psuedo-draw (like Nv, haven, tactician, venture etc.). Cycling are cards that more quickly get your new cards into circulation without using another mechanism - chancellor is a classic, but scavenger, venture, and others may be used for this purpose. Sifting is selectively discarding cards in order to play others; the easy things are like cellar and warehouse, harder things are venture or farming village there are times when they do sift (e.g. farming village/courtyard in curse game) and times when they don't (e.g. venture in a lot of games just cycles). The big thing with deck accelerators is that all of them seek to use other cards in your deck more often/sooner.

Payout:
I think payout divides pretty well into: treasures, simple action cash, conditional action cash, simple gainers, cost reducers, and trash for payout. Treasures is pretty much the card type and they give you coins to use during a buy phase. Simple action cash is stuff that says + X coins that doesn't require any sort of trashing - things like mountebank, scavenger, pawn, can all work here. Conditional action cash are things like tribute, baron, and harvest - they give you cash IFF the situation meets their requirements. Simple gainers are cards that gain you other useful things - like IW, treasure map, or HoP; these don't work through the buy phase, but can be the way to score all your points. Cost reducers provide pseudo-cash by making cards easier to acquire (e.g. Bridge, Highway, Princess). Trash for payout are cards that require you to trash something to get payout - i.e. salvager, altar, forge. These tend to be the cards that your deck accelerators are looking to play more often and sooner.

Payload:
Payload is how you eventually win the game. These fall into two major categories - dead and live. Dead payload are cards that you'd normally be happier were on an island and you plan around them. Live cards are cards that you actively want in addition to their VP use. The border between the two is highly kingdom dependent - as it should be. Tunnels may be payout on board that lets you use them to gain gold; on another they may just be a third pile for silk roads. All VP chip cards are live and most of the time dual victory/action/treasure cards are also live. Simple victory cards (alt or regular) tend to be dead unless the board really lets you cash in on them (e.g. baron makes estates live, upgrade/graverobber/nobles/duke makes duchies live).

Action balance:
Action balance breaks down into cantrip villages, non-cantrip villages, and conditional actions. Cantrip villages are those which draw at least as 1 card in addition to giving you +2 action; they play well in traditional engines and often have the word "village" in there. Non-cantrip villages (like festival, necropolis) play a bit differently, mostly by working better in non-traditional draw engines. Conditional actions are those which might give you additional actions or psuedo-actions, but require some condition for that to happen; for instance Tr, Kc, and Prssn can all be used for psuedo-actions, but only if you can chain two or more of them and then pair them up with action cards to play multiple times. Golem likewise provides conditional actions IFF you have two or more non-golem actions in your discard/draw deck. Other conditional actions include xroads, iron works, and tribute. Pretty much, action balance is only an issue in engines and ultra lean decks (e.g. Kc/Kc/Mon/Mon/Bish); it doesn't play a big role in BM type games.

Multiplicity:
Multiplicity is most useful for engines, but can rarely be good for BM type decks. It comes in a few main flavors - +buy, simple gain, trash for gain, and freebies. +Buy is anything that has that phrase written on the card. Normally you need just one two +buy, but it can pay to have more on some boards. Simple gain is multiplicity when it is used to more quickly build up needed cards than to get VP bearing cards; IW, workshop, armory, Hop, etc. can all be used to acquire more cards any given turn, trash for gain is anything that requires you to trash something else to gain a card the entire remodel family falls here, but also altar and catacombs. Generally, multiplicity cards are engine enablers, though a few odd ducks can work in BM (e.g. trader).

Time buy:
Sometimes what you really want out of card is just to buy a few turns to do whatever you think is strongest. These are the cards you use to prolong the game by buying them. They fall handily into attacks and leaches. Attacks have the attack card type and make your opponent's hand less powerful on average. We can split this group further into junkers (gives away junk like curses, estates, coppers, etc. - these can end up not be time buys if they enable a 3-pile rush), discarders (reduces hand size), and deck muckers (puts good opponent cards in trash/bad ones on top or in trash). Not all attacks are time buys - thief can be, but may not be (same with NB). Most discarders are not when tunnel is out.

Leaches are cards that force your opponent to alter strategy because you derive more benefit from his moves than he does. Classic leaches are possession (where you opponent may have to adopt a slower strategy just because you went down the potion route), smugglers (forcing your opponent to not buy to your strengths), and masq (tends to equalize worst cards, can steal/burn powerful ones).

VP denial:

This is an odd bunch of cards that can destroy opposing player's VP. The biggees are Sab and Swindler. Other more conditional options include masq, thief, noble brigand, knights, and rogue. These are cards that can win you the game when you have already let 50% + 1 of the VP points out there (ignoring curses) slip over to the other guy.


Other functional categories I've considered: hand management, deck management, reactions, and easy 3 piles but I'm not sure they are that generally useful as concepts.

So where a card falls is a less a question of how works, than how you intend to use it on some specific board. Some are simple: coppersmith is payload - he gives you more coin and not much else. Some are simple combos (activated cities provide action balance, deck acceleration, and payload). Some are conditional and complex combos (baron is normally a payload card, but can be a multiplicity card for a gardens rush). Some change completely when the board changes (thief is payload most of the time as you just gain cards, but it can become a payload card with harems out).

The important thing is to define your strategy and then find which components can help the most with what you want to do. For instance, let's say your strategy is to build an engine to cash out HoPs for provinces & estates. Okay, well then you will need acceleration to play your HoPs and line them up with different cards. So you should look for some draw/trashing or sorting to get the HoPs and their activators lined up. You could do something like venture/cartographer/kingdom treasures or something like cantrips & cantrip draw. However let's say your only option to get enough cards to get good odds on HoPs is smithy. Then you need to look at your options for card balance - festival is pretty bad here - it doesn't draw a card and it competes on price with HoP - it can be completely correct to option for hamlet/xroads here over festival. HoP then provides multiplicity to set up a draw engine and maybe you should grab a militia to slow down your opponent's Smithy - BM.

Not every deck needs every component. Attack decks can work with zero deck acceleration, only cash for payload, and end the game without a single payload card (winning -1 to -3) for something like hag/cultist.
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Grujah

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2012, 11:14:34 am »
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Why isn't VP denial included in time buy?
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jomini

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 11:41:10 am »
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Why isn't VP denial included in time buy?

Because they accelerate game end. For instance, swindler can destroy duchies, but it can also pile out another 5; of course hitting prov -> prov brings end game sooner. Likewise, sab hitting golds & provinces can bring end game sooner by forcing an ending on piles. Thief can deplete gardens and steal harems, but it just vastly accelerates an opponent's deck by trashing copper. Knights and rogue may work to buy time, but too often denying VP denial hastens game end.
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rinkworks

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2012, 09:29:57 am »
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I think of Baron primarily as a "Slingshot" or "Boost" card that will help nab me a super-important $5-$7 as early as possible.

This reminds me that I have a name for cards that provide an advantage to a player who is (probably) behind:  Rubber Band cards.  It's not my term; I took it from someone who posted here way back, but I don't remember who it was.  Anyway, Rabble is an example:  in a Rabble duel, the attack will be most effective against the player with the most green cards and thus the one who is (probably) winning.

They're nice to have in light of all the "rich get richer" cards like Tournament and so forth.  But I've never sat down to try to figure out how many rubber band cards there are in Dominion.  Anyone want to give it a shot?
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theory

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 09:41:54 am »
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I think we just found a new category for the Mini-Set Design Competition?  It's very challenging because you don't want to actually incentivize losing.
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Schneau

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 09:52:33 am »
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Anyone want to give it a shot?

I'll give it a one-shot: Pillage
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eHalcyon

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 01:38:40 pm »
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I think we just found a new category for the Mini-Set Design Competition?  It's very challenging because you don't want to actually incentivize losing.

Tough, but interesting.  Would need more examples though.

Jester?  More Green = More Curses, and also if they have good cards, more good cards for you to steal.
Smugglers?  If they are doing well, it's more likely you'll have something good to smuggle.
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Octo

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 06:33:00 am »
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Awesome post by jomini there, you've really well articulated some major components there.

However, I would question this assertion you made at the beginning:
Quote
for card comparisons, I think it is more important to focus on the functional stuff - we don't really know what cool new mechanisms will come out and there is just so much overlap that it gets crazy
I agree with the part about the overlap sending things crazy, and I also think the distinction between functional and mechanistic itself is an accurate one, but I wonder if passing over the mechanistic side overlooks a key point: the functional side will allow you to identify what elements you need for your strategy (or least consider the options in that way) but the nitty gritty of how you actually execute your strategy will depend a lot on the mechanistic side of the available cards surely?

I suppose you can break down Lab into an Accelerator / Action-balance, and if you see Smith (Accelerator) then you might need some Action-balance to make multiple Smithies work (setting aside the idea that one is usually enough), so in that way the functional side works to some extent, and I just wonder if we can indeed amputate the mechanistic side of things without heavily undermining the application of this to strategy (eg discussing why a deck actually worked through analysis of the card components). Or have I maybe misjudged the goal of such categorization?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 06:35:46 am by Octo »
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dondon151

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2012, 10:02:14 am »
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Tough, but interesting.  Would need more examples though.

Jester?  More Green = More Curses, and also if they have good cards, more good cards for you to steal.
Smugglers?  If they are doing well, it's more likely you'll have something good to smuggle.

If the opponent is doing well, you can't Smuggle their Provinces :(

Possession is the quintessential rubber-band card. A lot of coming back from behind in Dominion involves players not adequately preparing for the endgame; for example, I can say that Thief is a rubber-band card because it helps your deck and it puts a greened opponent in a tight place, but that's only because he didn't account for Thief. Or something like that.
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Schneau

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2012, 09:11:59 pm »
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I think one big distinction is between multi-trashers and single-trashers. Multi-trashers (Chapel, Remake, Steward, Trading Post, Forge, Mint?, Mercenary) can get your deck thin much quicker than single trashers (the rest of the trashers). If you need a thin deck, a single trasher may be enough, where you'll probably need multiple multi-trashers to achieve a thin deck.

As a note, many fan cards are not careful enough about creating strong multi-trashers + benefit. These types of cards can easily be too strong of openers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2012, 03:24:40 am »
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I think one big distinction is between multi-trashers and single-trashers. Multi-trashers (Chapel, Remake, Steward, Trading Post, Forge, Mint?, Mercenary) can get your deck thin much quicker than single trashers (the rest of the trashers). If you need a thin deck, a single trasher may be enough, where you'll probably need multiple multi-trashers to achieve a thin deck.

As a note, many fan cards are not careful enough about creating strong multi-trashers + benefit. These types of cards can easily be too strong of openers.

Count is also a multi-trasher.

I don't think I would count Forge as a fast trasher, given its price.  Mercenary probably isn't so fast either, as it is a bit difficult to obtain.

I might consider Upgrade as a fast trasher, since it is cantrip (provides cycling so you see it again sooner; can play it more often because it won't clash with other terminals).  Not sure about it though.
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Schneau

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2012, 06:58:45 am »
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I think one big distinction is between multi-trashers and single-trashers. Multi-trashers (Chapel, Remake, Steward, Trading Post, Forge, Mint?, Mercenary) can get your deck thin much quicker than single trashers (the rest of the trashers). If you need a thin deck, a single trasher may be enough, where you'll probably need multiple multi-trashers to achieve a thin deck.

As a note, many fan cards are not careful enough about creating strong multi-trashers + benefit. These types of cards can easily be too strong of openers.

Count is also a multi-trasher.

I don't think I would count Forge as a fast trasher, given its price.  Mercenary probably isn't so fast either, as it is a bit difficult to obtain.

I might consider Upgrade as a fast trasher, since it is cantrip (provides cycling so you see it again sooner; can play it more often because it won't clash with other terminals).  Not sure about it though.

Good catch on Count. I definitely agree that Forge and Mercenary aren't fast trashers, but I included them to have a complete list of cards that can trash multiple cards in a turn.
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jomini

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Re: Feedback needed: Define card categories
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2012, 10:47:15 am »
+1

I think one big distinction is between multi-trashers and single-trashers. Multi-trashers (Chapel, Remake, Steward, Trading Post, Forge, Mint?, Mercenary) can get your deck thin much quicker than single trashers (the rest of the trashers). If you need a thin deck, a single trasher may be enough, where you'll probably need multiple multi-trashers to achieve a thin deck.

As a note, many fan cards are not careful enough about creating strong multi-trashers + benefit. These types of cards can easily be too strong of openers.

Not really. Masq tends to be faster than trading post because:
1. You can buy it on every opening.
2. The +2 cards means you see it about 1/2 a turn sooner - and that compounds in the long haul (play masq, see it sooner)
3. Trading post only results in a net decrease of 1 card in deck. 

I'd expect masq to trash quicker than trading post by around the 3rd play. And this is true of a LOT of the "slow" trashers. Loan can be freely mixed with opening draw (like smithy) and just hit more often than other stuff. How many cards you trash at time is only part of the story; often a bigger part of the story is how quickly can you get it and how often can you play it.

Forge and mercenary take so long, they don't really count as fast trashing. Likewise chapel buried in the BM deck doesn't count as fast to me.

Of course, to me a much bigger thing than how fast something trashes is how fast I build up to my engine (not too many BM decks like all that much trashing). Upgrade is much faster in many engines than trading post or mint; I see it more often, it gives me better cards, and I don't have to spend a terminal on using it. Something like altar may be quite "slow" at trashing my deck, but insanely fast at building me a rabble/bazaar engine. This can lead to interesting things like money lender being better for me than remake (because remake nerfs so many hands where money lender let's me buy Bv/draw or Bv/attack).

Octo:
Quote
I agree with the part about the overlap sending things crazy, and I also think the distinction between functional and mechanistic itself is an accurate one, but I wonder if passing over the mechanistic side overlooks a key point: the functional side will allow you to identify what elements you need for your strategy (or least consider the options in that way) but the nitty gritty of how you actually execute your strategy will depend a lot on the mechanistic side of the available cards surely?

I suppose you can break down Lab into an Accelerator / Action-balance, and if you see Smith (Accelerator) then you might need some Action-balance to make multiple Smithies work (setting aside the idea that one is usually enough), so in that way the functional side works to some extent, and I just wonder if we can indeed amputate the mechanistic side of things without heavily undermining the application of this to strategy (eg discussing why a deck actually worked through analysis of the card components). Or have I maybe misjudged the goal of such categorization?

The problem with doing the mechanistic side of things is that it is either trivial: e.g. smithy needs villages while lab does not; or it is hopelessly complex (well menage likes diversity, but is fine with mass disappearing action-cash - but only it is non-terminal or if you can use deck control or durations to ensure lots of village like effects in starting hand). To really say why Fishing Village/X beats some other strategy you may need to detail any Fv's many mechanics - its a duration (so you can get by with a lower density of them than otherwise), it gives coin (so you need less payload), it disappears without replacement after play (so you can use it well with menage or lib), it costs 3 (so you can spam it or use some combo like talisman, or develop), etc.

Given that Fv is NOT a complicated card this means that a mechanistic taxonomy would need well over 50 categories for the current crop of cards. That is why we can write entire articles about just two card combos, things are so complex that you may use six or seven mechanics to build a two card combo. A full mechanistic taxonomy is going to be functionally useless because no one is going to bother to learn it, remember it, and then use it for explaining cards.

What I find useful about the functional thing is that it quickly defines what is possible in a kingdom. No action balance - only cantrip engines are possible. Some alt-VP kicking around - well we could have a longer possible game (e.g. nobles making engines viable by letting them drop to a 3-5 province split) or we could enable a rush (e.g. silk roads). Likewise when we talk about a lot of decks there are some functions where we just need any card in the functional category - Hunting Party just needs a unique payload card for 2 coin (duchess, royal seal) so having well understood broad functional categories makes sense. Mechanistic stuff is how you win in high level play, but it gets subtle and intricate too quickly to make categorization really useful.
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