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[enquerencia]

I know there was a great article recently about the "first game" of dominion and how to play it with total newbs so that they don't get turned off of the game and can learn how to have fun with it, and mostly that answers a lot of the first questions I had about how to introduce my wife to this game so that we can both enjoy it. 

This sounds like the "Building the First Game Engine" article, and I think it's more aimed at people who are already gamers, who want to see both how the mechanics of the game work and what the strategy space is like.

This was the article I was talking about in my OP. 

So tomorrow I'm finally off work, and I'm going to go to the game store and buy some dominion! I'm going to get base.  I don't know what the Big Box thing is, but if they offer that I guess I'll have to endure some AP IRL to figure out if that's actually a good decision. 

I think I might start off by setting up the "first game" and letting her play solitaire for a few turns to understand the game mechanics.  But just a few turns, enough to see an action and play it, realize why copper is bad, etc. And then leave the "first game" on the board and play with her. 

I'm still torn on whether to go Cornucopia or Seaside, but I hear a lot of what people are saying about the durations and remembering to leave them out.  When I play, I always "trick" the durations I've played on my current turn (turn them sideways), and only "untrick" them at the beginning of my next turn.  So I only clean up the cards that are in their normal up-and-down orientation.  But this might be a bit much if it comes too soon.  But due to financial constraints, I doubt the second expansion question will really be a problem for at least a couple weeks, and by then I should know what to do, which might be nothing, and give the base set to my friends, who have very worn out copies of those cards at this point.

I don't think I'll get Intrigue right away for two reasons.  One, it's a standalone, which is kind of redundant in terms of all the extra coppers, estates, etc. that I have to figure out how to store, and two, it's not even close to my favorite expansion.  I feel like it would be a good third or fourth to buy, if we even get to that point.  But I'll definitely get it before Alchemy if it looks like she's going to like it enough for me to get all of them.

[Octo]

realize why copper is bad

Lol, I've shown dominion to a fair few people and continued to play with them many times and some (maybe even most) still haven't clocked that coppers really are genuinely bad.

[Kuildeous]

And it's probably best not to explain that right away. It's one thing to figure out the action/buy/cleanup phases and all the cards that jack with that. When deck density gets discussed, there is a glazed look.

Yeah, it's inefficient to not trim out Coppers and Estates. Let her have her fun with her Coppers. Once she gets to know the game and enjoy it, then you can talk about trimming.

I make the mistake of correcting new players when they say, "Oh, Copper costs 0. I can buy one of those with my extra Buy, right?" Nowadays, I just let newbies do it. It gives them satisfaction to figure something out, and I don't want to burst their bubble. After a while, the person will notice that I'm not buying a Copper and ask why. Then it's time for the Talk.

[Insomniac]

And it's probably best not to explain that right away. It's one thing to figure out the action/buy/cleanup phases and all the cards that jack with that. When deck density gets discussed, there is a glazed look.

Yeah, it's inefficient to not trim out Coppers and Estates. Let her have her fun with her Coppers. Once she gets to know the game and enjoy it, then you can talk about trimming.

I make the mistake of correcting new players when they say, "Oh, Copper costs 0. I can buy one of those with my extra Buy, right?" Nowadays, I just let newbies do it. It gives them satisfaction to figure something out, and I don't want to burst their bubble. After a while, the person will notice that I'm not buying a Copper and ask why. Then it's time for the Talk.

It depends, on the board the first people I introduced Dominion to were/are avid Magic the gathering players playing in tourneys etc, so they immediately picked up that less cards is better because they come from a scenario where there is (normally) never a good reason to run more than the minimum requirement of cards in a deck.

[rinkworks]

In Intrigues defence:

I think the alternative VPs are the keystone of Intrigue but are often over looked. The dual types really get people thinking about the mechanics (like, what you could exploit) and the alt. VPs force players to address their long-game strategy because the VPs are actually useful which changes things a lot. The fact that there's 2 obviously good $6s seemed to get people going too when I cracked Intrigue out, and the game not just boiling down to Provinces is really refreshing. The attacks and the AP, yeah, they can be a pain for sure, but the flip-side is that there's fewer new rules to learn and you can explore your tactics more deeply rather than coping with new mechanics. The choice can cause AP, but then I find people really like not being committed to one thing out them, they're not so afraid of them being a wasted buy (even if they really are).

Duration cards are of course great, but I find that new players (and experienced too actually) continually clear them away and forget about them, and that can be a frustrating experience. Also, the tokens and stuff in Seaside, for me, are not so hot, they're a bit fiddley and reduce the elegance of the pure-card-based-ness of the game.

All anecdotal and personal stuff though. It might be the case that the wifey loves attacks and gets a kick out of them, who knows?

Lastly, more generally: I think it got said earlier, but yeah, definitely try to get some 3-player on the go with another newbie if you can, and consider not playing and letting them play each other 2P. Just knowing that the other player will aware of all your mistakes can be offputting, and another newbie really helps counter that.

PS - Throne Room is in Base

These are all excellent points, and in reading this post I realized that what makes Seaside my favorite is Isotropic.  I have exactly two RL games with Seaside, and trying to get the Seaside newbs to adhere to any kind of system for tracking the durations was nearly impossible, even though they had 10 to 50 games with base/Intrigue under their belts.  It makes me realize how much easier the game is to play on a computer than in real life.  I don't think I've opened my boxes since I found Iso.  When Iso goes down, I will likely give up Dominion.

Cleaning up durations wrongly is an inevitable part of the learning process, but is it really that bad?  I've taught many new players, and they always figure it out before that first game is over.  I hasten to add that I teach a system for clean-up (play the Durations above the area where other cards get played, then move them down at the start of the next turn) right off the bat, so that it is ingrained right from the start.  I do have to remind people to "Play that up here" and "That stays out" for the first few turns, but it's really only a few turns rather than a few games.

Now that you mention it, though, I wonder if having played 50+ games of Base/Intrigue is a liability rather than an asset.  If you know you don't know the game, you're probably more open to procedural changes with playing out a turn.

[Kuildeous]

It depends, on the board the first people I introduced Dominion to were/are avid Magic the gathering players playing in tourneys etc, so they immediately picked up that less cards is better because they come from a scenario where there is (normally) never a good reason to run more than the minimum requirement of cards in a deck.

Agreed. If the players are already avid gamers, then they likely can handle being thrown into the deep end.

For brand-new players like the OP's wife, I'd be more inclined to let them have their fun and explain tactics after they feel comfortable with the overall game. This is especially true if they equate fun with gaining things. I wouldn't want to get in the way of that if I want them to come back to Dominion.

[aaron0013]

If you are trying to decide between Seaside and Cornucopia, it seems very obvious to me.  Partly because Seaside is my favorite set

But in reality, Cornucopia is very annoying for most new players. It is hard for them to stay interested when each of your Fairgrouds are suddenly worth 6 VP or you set off your giant HP engine.  A lot of the Cornucopia cards present a dominant strategy that most new players will not be able to copy or beat.  I do a veto setup similar to iso with my friends, and the Cornucopia cards are almost always the first to go.

Seaside, on the other hand, is set up much more nicely for new players.  The durations might be confusing at first, but after the first game, I have found that durations are their favorite cards (and they are really fun)!

[Octo]

@rinkworks: I wish it only took a few turns.

There's several factors for me though: 1) we mix up what games we play so Dominion get played about 1 in 4 sessions tops really, but usually less, 2) there's only 8 duration cards out of 150-200, so they don't turn up that often, 3) they don't always buy them, and 4) they're not always there and it's not every week we meet up. So I guess that adds up to them often forgetting, even though some of them have been on iso loads. I'm curious as to what Dark Ages is going to be like.

As for it not being that bad, it's not, it's just they themselves get frustrated when they've cleaned their stuff away and they can't remember what they had out and I was busy doing my turn so forget. I teach the whole 'layers' thing too, but sometimes I have enough trouble getting people to keep their discard pile in the same place and face up rather than switching it side-to-side both face down and then forgetting which one is which. *facepalm*

My old school gamer mates are fine with all of this, but these days the people I play with are not from that ilk.`One of the problems is that they always look to me for the rules and to be reminded of what to do, so they never learn it thoroughly for themselves (Eg we'd played dominion a good dozen or so times, and one couple liked it enough that I bought them a set. Their first couple games on their own were very weird because they left out the estates). I try to just let them move on, but it doesn't seem to work. Or they just end up playing cards entirely wrong. Playing money in order is another one that catches them out (eg Bank) and I have to constantly re-iterate that you have to actually play your money to the table, even if it's only so we can see the cards and confirm you do actually have $8!

As for advanced tactics, yeah, some haven't really even noted the significance of when you buy something. Once someone bought a Gardens on turn 1 and I commented that that probably wasn't wise (should've not said anything) and then when I proceeded to do a gardens rush at the end they said "hey, but you bought loads of Gardens!" - it all depends on the players really.

I dunno, maybe my mates are just slow, or maybe we just don't play dominion enough. I'd like to play it more, but 5 is a crap number for it, and that's how many we usually have.

[rinkworks]

Ugh, that all sounds horrible and frustrating.  You're right, though, 5 players is not great for Dominion.  I don't even like 4-player games.  2 and 3 are fine.  With 5, I'd actually recommend splitting into two separate games, but that may or may not work out with the particular social dynamic you have.  Plus, it sounds like they'd get the rules all wrong if you weren't there to rein them in.

And what IS it with forgetting to play Treasures?  The people I've taught the game seem more game-savvy than your crowd, but there is always always always those moments early on when the player is deciding what to buy without having actually played at Treasures.  I get the deck/discard positioning mix-up thing going too ("That has to be face-up!").  But again, these problems all seem to go away pretty quickly, so I guess it's just a matter of who you're playing with.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

As for it not being that bad, it's not, it's just they themselves get frustrated when they've cleaned their stuff away and they can't remember what they had out and I was busy doing my turn so forget. I teach the whole 'layers' thing too, but sometimes I have enough trouble getting people to keep their discard pile in the same place and face up rather than switching it side-to-side both face down and then forgetting which one is which. *facepalm*

Yeah, I'm forever reminding them about draw pile vs. discard, and face up vs. facedown, while trying to stress that it really matters.  We've had a couple of turns where people played something incorrectly, and it wasnt possible to unwind it and correct it because cards had been placed in the wrong place, etc.  I don't want to spend my whole game being the "put it here" police either, so it detracts from my experience.  I think part of the problem is that the people I've taught to play are serious card players (bridge, pinochle, spades, hearts, etc.), and it's habit that tricks get turned faced down and moved to a certain place on the table.  It's hard to reverse years of that training.

I've tried both the two-tiered space (higher and lower) for playing durations, as well orientation (is the long axis of the card N-S relative to the player or E-W), and I've encouraged each player to think of a way to make it work that is specific to them.  It's just tough for some people, I guess.  Maybe more experience specifically with the durations will impress upon them why it matters so much.  ("Would you rather start your next hand with 7 cards or 9, cause you played two Wharfs you know".)

[enquerencia]

So, I bought the base set about a week ago, and my wife and I have played about five games now.  We played the "first game" twice, and the first time I kinda just bought things willy nilly not really trying to win, but buying things that she wasn't buying to sort of intrigue her about what they might do.  But about ten turns into that, realizing that this game was going to take for-ev-er, and and not wanting to burn her out on thinking this was a really boring game, I switched to a village/smithy tactic, and, sadly, won very heartily.  But what I learned is that my wife is a VERY competitive person.  So we played it again, and this time she went straight for village/smithy, and I went big money.  Still won, but not as harshly. 

A few games later, and she is now pretty involved.  She spends a lot of time on her buy phase reading every card and contemplating, and she won't communicate with me at all about what she plans to do.  I consider this to be a very GOOD sign that she is going to like this game once she picks up a few more basic concepts. 

That being said, I think it will be a good long while before I buy any new expansions.  I just think she needs to win a game first, and I have to admit that I don't like to lose.  We also don't play that often, due to life and all that jazz, so I can be a little bit patient there. 

In general, I'm just excited that she actually seems to enjoy playing and considers losing a good reason to play better.

I still have trouble getting her to put her discards in the right place, and for some reason she always wants to throw her action cards on the table in a very disorganized manner and tries to buy things with her treasures still in hand, but hey, you gotta crawl before you walk, right?

[enquerencia]

BTW, I started with the disclaimer that we each start with identical decks and that all ten of the cards we start with are really bad cards, and the first game we played with moneylender in the supply, she opened with moneylender, so I think she does understand that coppers are bad.  She did have a little trouble understanding how mine and remodel are different, and tried to pull a mine (put the upgraded card into your hand) with a remodel.  She briefly called me a cheater until I calmly read the text from both cards and then she just kind of gave me a "I hate you" look and carried on.  It's cool.  I get that look from her a lot.

[Octo]

I think we can safely chalk this one up in the "wins" column.

[jsh357]

Yeah, the difficulty in explaining to people where to put their in-play/discard/durations is one of those things you just don't see online, but eventually they get it.  It varies from person to person. 

[ConMan]

I think we can safely chalk this one up in the "wins" column.

Definitely sounds like it. And sounds like she's starting to think in the right general direction about strategy, too. She doesn't want to discuss her thought processes during the game, but is she interested in between-game strategy discussion?

[jotheonah]

It was two or three games of Base Dominion in before my friend who was teaching me the game casually mentioned that Mine has an "in hand" clause. "Oh, you didn't know? That explains why you were losing that last game so bad."

[Octo]

Really? Because it's not optional, I make sure people take it in hand, otherwise the rules of the game are being broken. But on top of that I'm aware that it's a subtle distinction in the rules that's easy to miss as a beginner and so am careful to point it out. That sounds a bit underhand from your mate to me :/

[Toolshed113]

You guys with wives that are into dominion are lucky... My girlfriend has zero interest in strategy games. She's the type that goes to the casino and prefers to play the games that are total luck (slots, video poker) rather than any table games with a learning curve. She was nice enough to play Citadels with me once or twice and I think she even may have enjoyed it. I still can't get her to try dominion though...

[aaron0013]

I agree that we should not be breaking the rules when teaching beginners, but there are a couple things that I don't push as much as other rules. The main thing that I will let slip is the deck/discard placement. I will tell them the proper placement when explaining the rules, but won't keep nagging them about it. The reason is, some of them are used to playing games with the deck right beside discard, and they just feel more comfortable that way. What do I care as long as they don't get them mixed around?(I always make sure their discard is face up) maybe it is more important than I think, but it seems better to let them have fun doing their thing than to spoil it with constant reminding.

[Kuildeous]

Really? Because it's not optional, I make sure people take it in hand, otherwise the rules of the game are being broken. But on top of that I'm aware that it's a subtle distinction in the rules that's easy to miss as a beginner and so am careful to point it out. That sounds a bit underhand from your mate to me :/

Yeah, that raises suspicion in me too. I don't like it when someone teaches a game and doesn't mention a rule until it comes up that happens to benefit him.

That makes me hyper-aware when I'm explaining rules. I don't want to be accused of withholding information until it helps me.

Although, it sounds like your friend may have just been focused on his own game and wasn't paying attention to the newbie playing Mine wrong. It might not be a conscious effort to win. He just needed to pay more attention to the newbies, which can be difficult if he's not very experienced.

But with new players, I get almost obsessive with making sure they do everything correctly. I have them play their treasures, so that they can make use of their resources. Often, I'll see someone play a Militia and then say, "With my three, I buy a Silver." When I make them play their treasures, I can point out, "You have three Coppers, but your Militia gives +$2." You can't rely on newbies to play their cards optimally—otherwise they likely wouldn't be newbies. And there are other nuances to point out: Mine, Explorer, and Torturer give cards to the hand; Duration cards don't get discarded the turn that they're played; and Minion being played for $2 means that certain reaction cards can still be played. 

It's simply responsible to remind new players of these nuances. They're relying on you to explain the rules, and Dominion has several exceptions to keep track of.

Really, it's interesting to consider the brain power needed to master (or even dabble) in Dominion. You know (soon) what 200 different cards do, and you also know several pairings between those 200 cards and even some more complex interactions like three- or four-card combos.

[Duchess Ninja]

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent way to condition players to use duration cards correctly. Our group uses the "tap" method from Magic (turn sideways) because most of us have played that for years. However, teaching players who don't have that background is difficult, at least in my experience. So now I use small sticky-notes. When a new player plays one, have him/her put a sticky-note on it. At the end of the turn, don't clean up any stickied cards, and "tap" them. At the beginning of the next turn, remove the stickies. You can also use things like coins, dice, etc..., but a sticky is really on there, and won't get knocked off by a random bump.

Putting the cards in another area is awesome if you have plenty of room, but we often play three or four player on a standard card table, so that is not an option with 16+ kindgom cards and four player areas.

[jotheonah]

I'm sure my friend wasn't doing it on purpose, but he also wasn't too broken up when he found out. He's the guy who always plays Chaotic-Evil in our D&D games. The Belkar. You know the type.

[aaron0013]

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent way to condition players to use duration cards.  At the end of the turn, don't clean up any stickied cards, and "tap" them. At the beginning of the next turn, remove the stickies. You can also use things like coins, dice, etc..., but a sticky is really on there, and won't get knocked off by a random bump.

Just wanted to say that if I put a sticky on a card or anything else, I'm going to get as far away as I can before it blows. It might be good conditioning for new players, but I don't think tapping them is the best idea.

Sorry.....