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[enquerencia]

I know there was a great article recently about the "first game" of dominion and how to play it with total newbs so that they don't get turned off of the game and can learn how to have fun with it, and mostly that answers a lot of the first questions I had about how to introduce my wife to this game so that we can both enjoy it. 

But to answer my real question you will need some background information.  Firstly, I do not own any dominion sets to date.  I always play at my friends' house, and they have every expansion.  My wife has become irritated that I choose to spend time over there playing, and I have told her (honestly, I think, but there will be more on this later) that if she will play with me I will have no reason to leave and play with friends.  And I'll spend my personal $ on buying the sets. 

So the thing is, one, I need to be able to teach her how to play without just stomping her over and over again, and two, I have to buy one expansion at a time and I'm accustomed to everything but Dark Ages.  I already know that buying Dark Ages too early without incorporating the other sets is a bad idea. Most of the cards in that set make my brain hurt and I actually understand the game pretty well.  My wife will see something like procession a junk dealer and play a grave robber as a cerebral explosion and will not want to play any more...

So what order should I buy the sets in?  Original dominion first, probably, but maybe intrigue... She actually is a smart lady...
Any thoughts would be appreciated, and to reference that earlier thing I said I'd say more about, I think I have to be honest with myself and say that I'm still going to want to play with my dominion buddies from time to time. But on the nights when I really can't pretend to be a decent husband and also leave my house to play with my friends, having her as a dominion buddy can't be a bad thing. 

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Welcome to the forum. It's great that your wife has agreed to give it a try, and I suspect that you are correct in waiting on Dark Ages.  The order in which to buy expansion sets is the subject of some discussion.  This thread may be helpful:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2396.0

You haven't said whether she likes games in general, but I would suggest starting her slowly, so that a) she doesn't get overwhelmed, and b) you don't spend a lot of money on expansions if she doesn't like it.  Both the base set and Intrigue can be played as standalones, so you could buy just one of those, and branch out from there if she likes it.

There is also a thread somewhere here on the forum about teaching new folks to play, but I can't seem to find it; perhaps a later poster will reference it.  It may or may not be the thread you speak of in your OP, but it offered some thoughts on how to give the new players small advantages, so that your experience with the game doesn't result in constant losses for the newbies.

Couple of other thoughts. For many real life players, there is a social aspect to this game that adds enormously to their experience. That may (or may not) be a selling point you can use, now or in the future.  She sees you getting out of the house, spending time with friends on this. Her learning to play could be an opportunity for her to have that social outing as well. Doesn't necessarily have to be with your current Dominion buddies, as that may be "guy time".  But I have found that women enjoy this game, and getting couples together to play may make the whole endeavor more attractive, at least in the long run.

Your concern about which expansion to buy says to me you've thought about this in order to maximize your chance of success.  I would do one more thing.  When you are ready to teach her, have the game set up before she sits down. The setup is, as you know, tedious, and could be a turn off. When you are done, a "honey I'll put all this away" may also be appreciated.

Good luck.

[DStu]

My wife has become irritated that I choose to spend time over there playing, and I have told her (honestly, I think, but there will be more on this later) that if she will play with me I will have no reason to leave and play with friends.   

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.msg63655#msg63655

@serious:  I think start base, go intrigue and afterwards either your wife should be interested enough that she might look on the cards on the other sets herself and you can discuss what you buy, or you don't have to worry about the question...

[jsh357]

I got all the expansions at once and my wife had no troubles.  I would suggest mainly limiting the number of attacks at first, especially cursing attacks.

[GendoIkari]

I got all the expansions at once and my wife had no troubles.  I would suggest mainly limiting the number of attacks at first, especially cursing attacks.

And, just avoid Minion altogether unless you have a really comfortable couch.

[Cuzz]

I got all the expansions at once and my wife had no troubles.  I would suggest mainly limiting the number of attacks at first, especially cursing attacks.

And, just avoid Minion altogether unless you have a really comfortable couch.

One of my first games with my girlfriend had KC, City, Grand Market, Festival, Conspirator and Chapel. No attacks, but after a couple $50 turns she wasn't crazy about playing with me again for a while.

[Beyond Awesome]

Funny thread. I'm single, but I have been thinking over and over about how I will teach my future girlfriend Dominion once I am in a relationship. My plan is to go in expansion order, and if I notice anything crazy like say a Torturer engine, I will just point it out to her that way she can hopefully kick my ass and feel good about it, so that way she won't feel so bad when I kick her ass. However, I'm not sure how that will all work out in actual practice.

[Polk5440]

1) "Does she like (card) games?" Is probably the most important question to ask yourself before figuring out the best way to introduce the game. If "no" stick with Base and don't think any more about it.

2) Is there another couple (a friend of yours + wife, or a friend + sig other of hers?) you can introduce to Dominion at the same time as well? Might be more of a social event. In fact, host a dinner + game party. (Eat dinner first, then play the game.)

I have found that it's usually better if more than one person is unfamiliar with a new game when trying to introduce it. There is less of a feeling of "oh, I'm slowing the game down because I'm new and don't know what any of the cards say."

3) When actually introducing Dominion (or any other game), keep it simple, rules focused, and restrain yourself from trying to point out any (even obvious) strategies until the rules are learned, or you get asked. From the time you start explaining to the time you start playing, it should be less than 10 minutes.

Keep the pitch along the lines of "The goal of Dominion is to get the most points possible. [Explain/show Victory cards.] You do this by buying cards [point to the Treasure and Action cards, but do NOT explain them each in detail] and building a deck. The person who's deck has the most Victory points at the end of the game wins. You do this by 1) playing an action, 2) buying a card, and 3) discarding all your cards and drawing a new hand [show a simple example turn, emphasizing you will be using the newly bought cards "right away." Show a reshuffle.]. This is more of a deck building card game rather than a card game that is played using a deck of cards." (5-7 minutes at MOST).

Then once the rules (or the important ones) are explained move onto SIMPLE strategies so she knows where to begin: "You could buy an Estate on the first turn, it's worth one point, but then you would never be able to get those cards worth 6 points. So you need to buy other cards to improve your deck (even thought they are not worth any points) and give yourself the ability to buy bigger and better Victory cards." (just 2-3 minutes) Then emphasize the game ending conditions, set up the first game, and begin!

After the first game, emphasize common problems you see crop up (not buying enough money, not having enough +actions, etc.)

Good luck.

[Davio]

I don't know if the expansions actually matter as much as the kingdom.

You would want to build a kingdom with small, but decent engine potential.
No kingdom where you will crush her with a 30 card $100 buy everything turn. That will surely turn her off.

There are two key aspects about Dominion that gives new players the "wow experience".
The first is that they will see and play cards they have bought. The first time they use a shuffled Silver to get a Gold is always a nice experience.
The second is the first time they string two or more action cards together. At that point they get a feeling that they're really playing the game.

Often, new players will buy action cards "just to see what they do". You shouldn't rob them of this experience by pointing out strategy.

So you need some harmless, but fun cards like Market, Cellar and Laboratory. Those are all in the base game.


When I explain the game, I point out the importance of money, but I do it in a way that makes them comfortable making their own choice when they're pondering a $3 or $6 buy. I always say something like "well, a Silver/Gold never hurts!". And that's even true, most of the time.

[Fuu]

I think the basic set has plenty of replay value for introducing new players (although playing fairly infrequently, it was many months between getting the base set and my first expansion). The recommended sets are great and in particular the 'first game' set is a must. Playing the same kingdom a couple of times before switching it up also seems to work. Don't introduce any kind of strategy or lingo, or play hard - just have fun buying stuff that looks cool and enjoy using it. My parents, my sister, my friends, my girlfriend, her cousins and my previous housemate were all hooked by starting this way. Good luck introducing your partner to the game!

[Octo]

Base, then intrigue, then it opens up from there.

Base introduces all they core concepts in their most straightforward variant, Intrigue builds really nicely on that without going overboard and the expansions all feel like they're missing something if base never appears, their the fancy stuff without the foundation. It might be the case that she could handle all kinds of sneaky stuff but - for me at least - one of the joys of dominion was the flowering open of the different exploitations of the mechanics, I'd played CCGs etc for ages so complication stuff would be fine, but seeing the simple stuff first allows me to appreciate the complex stuff later.

Then again, that's just me. And it's different when you're exploring it for yourself from when someone else is leading you through it.

[ycz6]

Base, then Intrigue, and if she's still interested at that point show her some of the other cards and let her decide.

[enquerencia]

Thanks everybody.  I think those of you who said that base is the first set to buy are right.  But maybe Cornucopia after that?  It's a little more complicated but rewards buying a variety of action cards and has some new elements to it.  Intrigue specifically has some of the harsher attacks in it, and game changers as well (mostly I'm thinking of Minion and Torturer) although Cornucopia does have Mountebank... In any case, I'm sold on buying base first, and yeah, maybe I'll let her look through the card lists and see which ones she likes, if she actually enjoys the game at all.

She does enjoy really basic card games like rummy, and she likes Monopoly a great deal, but neither of those are heavy strategy games, really.  We'll see.

I definitely appreciate all the thoughtful responses, and the well wishes!

[Davio]

Cornucopia doesn't have Mountebank, it has Tournament -> Followers and Young Witch and potentially Jester as Cursers.

[Octo]

Cornucopia second: perhaps, but I think sounds like a better idea than it might be in practice. The strategies it opens up do involve more cards, but new players buy many different cards out of inexperience, and I'm not sure how much cornucopia would be a crutch for that. You really need to be quite deliberate about what you're buying for the cornucopia strategies to actually be effective - it's more about engine building more than just allowing a mess of cards - and that's a fair whack harder than just picking a couple cards that combo.

[enquerencia]

Ah, yes, Mountebank is in Prosperity.  It was Jester I was thinking of.  And yeah, Tournament does kind of offer a sort of head fuck.  I think I'll just buy base and see where that takes me.  I might go seaside if she doesn't have any specific requests but still likes the game overall.  Just because it's my favorite.  Well, maybe not my favorite, but the duration cards are pretty awesome.  You know, it all depends on how it goes with the base set.  The first several times I played it was with only base cards, and then we got Cornucopia and shortly after, Prosperity.  But the people I was playing with were all die-hard game nerds, so I'll have to feel out the second expansion buy and play it by ear.

[TheMathProf]

When I introduced my wife to Dominion, Cornucopia was the third set we bought (after Base and Intrigue).  Cornucopia is still very much her favorite set.  Regarding Octo's comment, it may seem somewhat like a crutch, but if you effectively play variety with it better, it's still a teaching opportunity.

But then, my wife likes to learn from the game.  We play with Prosperity from time-to-time, and there was one game where she got a Turn 3 Gold and a turn 5 Platinum playing what was effectively a Big Money strategy (which is where she tends if she doesn't like the Action cards) and having amazing shuffle luck.  On a board without +buys, she had taken my "don't buy green cards too early to heart", and was still buying Platinum cards with $18 on Turn 9.  She did still win that one (her economy was just freaking huge compared to mine), but afterwards, we talked about the lack of buys (on her $18 turn, she said, "And I only have one buy...", clearly frustrated by the lack of options), and how on her second or third turn over $11, she probably should have just gone for Colonies.

In the early going, I think it's important to let them ask the strategy questions they have.  After they have some games under their belt, I still let my wife ask the strategy question, but I'll answer it after the game.     She seems to appreciate that, as we can point to the consequences of what her actual decision was, and compare that to what would have likely happened when she picked differently.  And she always feels better when I affirm her choices.

[Kuildeous]

I think I would suggest Intrigue first for one basic reason: the Big Box.

IIRC, the Big Box has the base set, Prosperity, and Alchemy. Unless things have changed in the marketplace, the Big Box is a pretty decent deal compared to buying all three separately.

If you're a gambling man, then maybe you could start with the Big Box (but shelve potion cards for a while) and save yourself some money in the long run. The problem is that if she doesn't go for it, then you paid more money than you should have. Although, I never consider it a bad thing to buy Dominion cards, but like you said, you play the game at your friend's house.

I would prefer starting off with the base set, but since you have the luxury of buying cards at reduced prices (unlike us zealots who buy sets as soon as they come out), you can better map out your purchases. 

[Ozle]

Yay for emotional blackmail! A real healthy relationship way to get people to play games!

Just go for Base, use the suggested sets, she will quickly decide if she likes it or not!

[eHalcyon]

Why not borrow a set or two from your friend, so you can try it out with your wife for free?

[rinkworks]

Concur that the kingdom matters more than the set.  Use the "First Game" base set kingdom first, then mix things up.  But note that different people like mixing things up more than others.  My wife was more comfortable playing a few games with the same cards before changing things up too much.

That said, you can't really appreciate how dynamic Dominion is until you've played your second kingdom and seen how completely differently it feels and plays from kingdom to kingdom.

By the way, I disagree with those who recommend Intrigue second.  It adds AP (Pawn, Steward) and demoralizing attacks (Torturer, Saboteur) without really changing up the game all that much.  Seaside is still my favorite expansion in terms of pure fun -- everybody loves Duration cards, kooky stuff like Treasure Map is exciting for new players, and the set plays fast.  Seaside has its share of grueling cards too (Ambassador, Sea Hag), but I dunno, seems like fewer of those overall than in Intrigue and therefore it's easier to avoid using them.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Concur that the kingdom matters more than the set.  Use the "First Game" base set kingdom first, then mix things up.  But note that different people like mixing things up more than others.  My wife was more comfortable playing a few games with the same cards before changing things up too much.

That said, you can't really appreciate how dynamic Dominion is until you've played your second kingdom and seen how completely differently it feels and plays from kingdom to kingdom.

By the way, I disagree with those who recommend Intrigue second.  It adds AP (Pawn, Steward) and demoralizing attacks (Torturer, Saboteur) without really changing up the game all that much.  Seaside is still my favorite expansion in terms of pure fun -- everybody loves Duration cards, kooky stuff like Treasure Map is exciting for new players, and the set plays fast.  Seaside has its share of grueling cards too (Ambassador, Sea Hag), but I dunno, seems like fewer of those overall than in Intrigue and therefore it's easier to avoid using them.

I agree that if I were buying expansions again, I would buy base, then Seaside.  The only real advantage Intrigue offers (besides Throne Room?) is that its a standalone.  The duration cards, and the theme of Seaside, are my favorites.

[Octo]

In Intrigues defence:

I think the alternative VPs are the keystone of Intrigue but are often over looked. The dual types really get people thinking about the mechanics (like, what you could exploit) and the alt. VPs force players to address their long-game strategy because the VPs are actually useful which changes things a lot. The fact that there's 2 obviously good $6s seemed to get people going too when I cracked Intrigue out, and the game not just boiling down to Provinces is really refreshing. The attacks and the AP, yeah, they can be a pain for sure, but the flip-side is that there's fewer new rules to learn and you can explore your tactics more deeply rather than coping with new mechanics. The choice can cause AP, but then I find people really like not being committed to one thing out them, they're not so afraid of them being a wasted buy (even if they really are).

Duration cards are of course great, but I find that new players (and experienced too actually) continually clear them away and forget about them, and that can be a frustrating experience. Also, the tokens and stuff in Seaside, for me, are not so hot, they're a bit fiddley and reduce the elegance of the pure-card-based-ness of the game.

All anecdotal and personal stuff though. It might be the case that the wifey loves attacks and gets a kick out of them, who knows?

Lastly, more generally: I think it got said earlier, but yeah, definitely try to get some 3-player on the go with another newbie if you can, and consider not playing and letting them play each other 2P. Just knowing that the other player will aware of all your mistakes can be offputting, and another newbie really helps counter that.

PS - Throne Room is in Base

[ConMan]

I know there was a great article recently about the "first game" of dominion and how to play it with total newbs so that they don't get turned off of the game and can learn how to have fun with it, and mostly that answers a lot of the first questions I had about how to introduce my wife to this game so that we can both enjoy it. 

This sounds like the "Building the First Game Engine" article, and I think it's more aimed at people who are already gamers, who want to see both how the mechanics of the game work and what the strategy space is like. For bringing a non-gamer in, you really want them to see a few things: how the basic bits of the game work together, how early game choices and shuffle luck combine to affect what you can do later on, and then, once they're a bit more familiar with things, how changing the Kingdom changes the way the game plays.

"First Game" works well for the first two points - most of the cards have minimal effect outside of the usual +Cards/Actions/Buys/$, and there are a few choices at each of the main costs to encourage experimenting with a few different combinations (you'd almost think it was designed that way ...) Like others have suggested, it may not be a great idea to consistently beat her by a huge margin in the first few games. Try playing a sub-par engine, that shows off some of what you can do, but green up a little too early to show why it clogs up the deck.

Then, once she feels comfortable with that board, ask her to pick maybe three cards on the board to remove, and replace them with some others from the Base set. Do this a few more times, and see how she feels about the variety of cards and how they affect the game. If she's still with you at this point, she's definitely a keeper and more importantly, you can discuss the value of buying an expansion or two together (and hopefully come to an agreement over which expansion would be a good one to pick).

There's a good chance that playing Dominion together will wind up being a once-in-a-while "Date night" kind of activity, in which case you probably won't find her eager to get more than maybe one expansion, but hopefully she'll see why you enjoy the game, and occasionally she can join in on the game nights or you can have a couple of friends over to play.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

In Intrigues defence:

I think the alternative VPs are the keystone of Intrigue but are often over looked. The dual types really get people thinking about the mechanics (like, what you could exploit) and the alt. VPs force players to address their long-game strategy because the VPs are actually useful which changes things a lot. The fact that there's 2 obviously good $6s seemed to get people going too when I cracked Intrigue out, and the game not just boiling down to Provinces is really refreshing. The attacks and the AP, yeah, they can be a pain for sure, but the flip-side is that there's fewer new rules to learn and you can explore your tactics more deeply rather than coping with new mechanics. The choice can cause AP, but then I find people really like not being committed to one thing out them, they're not so afraid of them being a wasted buy (even if they really are).

Duration cards are of course great, but I find that new players (and experienced too actually) continually clear them away and forget about them, and that can be a frustrating experience. Also, the tokens and stuff in Seaside, for me, are not so hot, they're a bit fiddley and reduce the elegance of the pure-card-based-ness of the game.

All anecdotal and personal stuff though. It might be the case that the wifey loves attacks and gets a kick out of them, who knows?

Lastly, more generally: I think it got said earlier, but yeah, definitely try to get some 3-player on the go with another newbie if you can, and consider not playing and letting them play each other 2P. Just knowing that the other player will aware of all your mistakes can be offputting, and another newbie really helps counter that.

PS - Throne Room is in Base

These are all excellent points, and in reading this post I realized that what makes Seaside my favorite is Isotropic.  I have exactly two RL games with Seaside, and trying to get the Seaside newbs to adhere to any kind of system for tracking the durations was nearly impossible, even though they had 10 to 50 games with base/Intrigue under their belts.  It makes me realize how much easier the game is to play on a computer than in real life.  I don't think I've opened my boxes since I found Iso.  When Iso goes down, I will likely give up Dominion.

[enquerencia]

I know there was a great article recently about the "first game" of dominion and how to play it with total newbs so that they don't get turned off of the game and can learn how to have fun with it, and mostly that answers a lot of the first questions I had about how to introduce my wife to this game so that we can both enjoy it. 

This sounds like the "Building the First Game Engine" article, and I think it's more aimed at people who are already gamers, who want to see both how the mechanics of the game work and what the strategy space is like.

This was the article I was talking about in my OP. 

So tomorrow I'm finally off work, and I'm going to go to the game store and buy some dominion! I'm going to get base.  I don't know what the Big Box thing is, but if they offer that I guess I'll have to endure some AP IRL to figure out if that's actually a good decision. 

I think I might start off by setting up the "first game" and letting her play solitaire for a few turns to understand the game mechanics.  But just a few turns, enough to see an action and play it, realize why copper is bad, etc. And then leave the "first game" on the board and play with her. 

I'm still torn on whether to go Cornucopia or Seaside, but I hear a lot of what people are saying about the durations and remembering to leave them out.  When I play, I always "trick" the durations I've played on my current turn (turn them sideways), and only "untrick" them at the beginning of my next turn.  So I only clean up the cards that are in their normal up-and-down orientation.  But this might be a bit much if it comes too soon.  But due to financial constraints, I doubt the second expansion question will really be a problem for at least a couple weeks, and by then I should know what to do, which might be nothing, and give the base set to my friends, who have very worn out copies of those cards at this point.

I don't think I'll get Intrigue right away for two reasons.  One, it's a standalone, which is kind of redundant in terms of all the extra coppers, estates, etc. that I have to figure out how to store, and two, it's not even close to my favorite expansion.  I feel like it would be a good third or fourth to buy, if we even get to that point.  But I'll definitely get it before Alchemy if it looks like she's going to like it enough for me to get all of them.

[Octo]

realize why copper is bad

Lol, I've shown dominion to a fair few people and continued to play with them many times and some (maybe even most) still haven't clocked that coppers really are genuinely bad.

[Kuildeous]

And it's probably best not to explain that right away. It's one thing to figure out the action/buy/cleanup phases and all the cards that jack with that. When deck density gets discussed, there is a glazed look.

Yeah, it's inefficient to not trim out Coppers and Estates. Let her have her fun with her Coppers. Once she gets to know the game and enjoy it, then you can talk about trimming.

I make the mistake of correcting new players when they say, "Oh, Copper costs 0. I can buy one of those with my extra Buy, right?" Nowadays, I just let newbies do it. It gives them satisfaction to figure something out, and I don't want to burst their bubble. After a while, the person will notice that I'm not buying a Copper and ask why. Then it's time for the Talk.

[Insomniac]

And it's probably best not to explain that right away. It's one thing to figure out the action/buy/cleanup phases and all the cards that jack with that. When deck density gets discussed, there is a glazed look.

Yeah, it's inefficient to not trim out Coppers and Estates. Let her have her fun with her Coppers. Once she gets to know the game and enjoy it, then you can talk about trimming.

I make the mistake of correcting new players when they say, "Oh, Copper costs 0. I can buy one of those with my extra Buy, right?" Nowadays, I just let newbies do it. It gives them satisfaction to figure something out, and I don't want to burst their bubble. After a while, the person will notice that I'm not buying a Copper and ask why. Then it's time for the Talk.

It depends, on the board the first people I introduced Dominion to were/are avid Magic the gathering players playing in tourneys etc, so they immediately picked up that less cards is better because they come from a scenario where there is (normally) never a good reason to run more than the minimum requirement of cards in a deck.

[rinkworks]

In Intrigues defence:

I think the alternative VPs are the keystone of Intrigue but are often over looked. The dual types really get people thinking about the mechanics (like, what you could exploit) and the alt. VPs force players to address their long-game strategy because the VPs are actually useful which changes things a lot. The fact that there's 2 obviously good $6s seemed to get people going too when I cracked Intrigue out, and the game not just boiling down to Provinces is really refreshing. The attacks and the AP, yeah, they can be a pain for sure, but the flip-side is that there's fewer new rules to learn and you can explore your tactics more deeply rather than coping with new mechanics. The choice can cause AP, but then I find people really like not being committed to one thing out them, they're not so afraid of them being a wasted buy (even if they really are).

Duration cards are of course great, but I find that new players (and experienced too actually) continually clear them away and forget about them, and that can be a frustrating experience. Also, the tokens and stuff in Seaside, for me, are not so hot, they're a bit fiddley and reduce the elegance of the pure-card-based-ness of the game.

All anecdotal and personal stuff though. It might be the case that the wifey loves attacks and gets a kick out of them, who knows?

Lastly, more generally: I think it got said earlier, but yeah, definitely try to get some 3-player on the go with another newbie if you can, and consider not playing and letting them play each other 2P. Just knowing that the other player will aware of all your mistakes can be offputting, and another newbie really helps counter that.

PS - Throne Room is in Base

These are all excellent points, and in reading this post I realized that what makes Seaside my favorite is Isotropic.  I have exactly two RL games with Seaside, and trying to get the Seaside newbs to adhere to any kind of system for tracking the durations was nearly impossible, even though they had 10 to 50 games with base/Intrigue under their belts.  It makes me realize how much easier the game is to play on a computer than in real life.  I don't think I've opened my boxes since I found Iso.  When Iso goes down, I will likely give up Dominion.

Cleaning up durations wrongly is an inevitable part of the learning process, but is it really that bad?  I've taught many new players, and they always figure it out before that first game is over.  I hasten to add that I teach a system for clean-up (play the Durations above the area where other cards get played, then move them down at the start of the next turn) right off the bat, so that it is ingrained right from the start.  I do have to remind people to "Play that up here" and "That stays out" for the first few turns, but it's really only a few turns rather than a few games.

Now that you mention it, though, I wonder if having played 50+ games of Base/Intrigue is a liability rather than an asset.  If you know you don't know the game, you're probably more open to procedural changes with playing out a turn.

[Kuildeous]

It depends, on the board the first people I introduced Dominion to were/are avid Magic the gathering players playing in tourneys etc, so they immediately picked up that less cards is better because they come from a scenario where there is (normally) never a good reason to run more than the minimum requirement of cards in a deck.

Agreed. If the players are already avid gamers, then they likely can handle being thrown into the deep end.

For brand-new players like the OP's wife, I'd be more inclined to let them have their fun and explain tactics after they feel comfortable with the overall game. This is especially true if they equate fun with gaining things. I wouldn't want to get in the way of that if I want them to come back to Dominion.

[aaron0013]

If you are trying to decide between Seaside and Cornucopia, it seems very obvious to me.  Partly because Seaside is my favorite set

But in reality, Cornucopia is very annoying for most new players. It is hard for them to stay interested when each of your Fairgrouds are suddenly worth 6 VP or you set off your giant HP engine.  A lot of the Cornucopia cards present a dominant strategy that most new players will not be able to copy or beat.  I do a veto setup similar to iso with my friends, and the Cornucopia cards are almost always the first to go.

Seaside, on the other hand, is set up much more nicely for new players.  The durations might be confusing at first, but after the first game, I have found that durations are their favorite cards (and they are really fun)!

[Octo]

@rinkworks: I wish it only took a few turns.

There's several factors for me though: 1) we mix up what games we play so Dominion get played about 1 in 4 sessions tops really, but usually less, 2) there's only 8 duration cards out of 150-200, so they don't turn up that often, 3) they don't always buy them, and 4) they're not always there and it's not every week we meet up. So I guess that adds up to them often forgetting, even though some of them have been on iso loads. I'm curious as to what Dark Ages is going to be like.

As for it not being that bad, it's not, it's just they themselves get frustrated when they've cleaned their stuff away and they can't remember what they had out and I was busy doing my turn so forget. I teach the whole 'layers' thing too, but sometimes I have enough trouble getting people to keep their discard pile in the same place and face up rather than switching it side-to-side both face down and then forgetting which one is which. *facepalm*

My old school gamer mates are fine with all of this, but these days the people I play with are not from that ilk.`One of the problems is that they always look to me for the rules and to be reminded of what to do, so they never learn it thoroughly for themselves (Eg we'd played dominion a good dozen or so times, and one couple liked it enough that I bought them a set. Their first couple games on their own were very weird because they left out the estates). I try to just let them move on, but it doesn't seem to work. Or they just end up playing cards entirely wrong. Playing money in order is another one that catches them out (eg Bank) and I have to constantly re-iterate that you have to actually play your money to the table, even if it's only so we can see the cards and confirm you do actually have $8!

As for advanced tactics, yeah, some haven't really even noted the significance of when you buy something. Once someone bought a Gardens on turn 1 and I commented that that probably wasn't wise (should've not said anything) and then when I proceeded to do a gardens rush at the end they said "hey, but you bought loads of Gardens!" - it all depends on the players really.

I dunno, maybe my mates are just slow, or maybe we just don't play dominion enough. I'd like to play it more, but 5 is a crap number for it, and that's how many we usually have.

[rinkworks]

Ugh, that all sounds horrible and frustrating.  You're right, though, 5 players is not great for Dominion.  I don't even like 4-player games.  2 and 3 are fine.  With 5, I'd actually recommend splitting into two separate games, but that may or may not work out with the particular social dynamic you have.  Plus, it sounds like they'd get the rules all wrong if you weren't there to rein them in.

And what IS it with forgetting to play Treasures?  The people I've taught the game seem more game-savvy than your crowd, but there is always always always those moments early on when the player is deciding what to buy without having actually played at Treasures.  I get the deck/discard positioning mix-up thing going too ("That has to be face-up!").  But again, these problems all seem to go away pretty quickly, so I guess it's just a matter of who you're playing with.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

As for it not being that bad, it's not, it's just they themselves get frustrated when they've cleaned their stuff away and they can't remember what they had out and I was busy doing my turn so forget. I teach the whole 'layers' thing too, but sometimes I have enough trouble getting people to keep their discard pile in the same place and face up rather than switching it side-to-side both face down and then forgetting which one is which. *facepalm*

Yeah, I'm forever reminding them about draw pile vs. discard, and face up vs. facedown, while trying to stress that it really matters.  We've had a couple of turns where people played something incorrectly, and it wasnt possible to unwind it and correct it because cards had been placed in the wrong place, etc.  I don't want to spend my whole game being the "put it here" police either, so it detracts from my experience.  I think part of the problem is that the people I've taught to play are serious card players (bridge, pinochle, spades, hearts, etc.), and it's habit that tricks get turned faced down and moved to a certain place on the table.  It's hard to reverse years of that training.

I've tried both the two-tiered space (higher and lower) for playing durations, as well orientation (is the long axis of the card N-S relative to the player or E-W), and I've encouraged each player to think of a way to make it work that is specific to them.  It's just tough for some people, I guess.  Maybe more experience specifically with the durations will impress upon them why it matters so much.  ("Would you rather start your next hand with 7 cards or 9, cause you played two Wharfs you know".)

[enquerencia]

So, I bought the base set about a week ago, and my wife and I have played about five games now.  We played the "first game" twice, and the first time I kinda just bought things willy nilly not really trying to win, but buying things that she wasn't buying to sort of intrigue her about what they might do.  But about ten turns into that, realizing that this game was going to take for-ev-er, and and not wanting to burn her out on thinking this was a really boring game, I switched to a village/smithy tactic, and, sadly, won very heartily.  But what I learned is that my wife is a VERY competitive person.  So we played it again, and this time she went straight for village/smithy, and I went big money.  Still won, but not as harshly. 

A few games later, and she is now pretty involved.  She spends a lot of time on her buy phase reading every card and contemplating, and she won't communicate with me at all about what she plans to do.  I consider this to be a very GOOD sign that she is going to like this game once she picks up a few more basic concepts. 

That being said, I think it will be a good long while before I buy any new expansions.  I just think she needs to win a game first, and I have to admit that I don't like to lose.  We also don't play that often, due to life and all that jazz, so I can be a little bit patient there. 

In general, I'm just excited that she actually seems to enjoy playing and considers losing a good reason to play better.

I still have trouble getting her to put her discards in the right place, and for some reason she always wants to throw her action cards on the table in a very disorganized manner and tries to buy things with her treasures still in hand, but hey, you gotta crawl before you walk, right?

[enquerencia]

BTW, I started with the disclaimer that we each start with identical decks and that all ten of the cards we start with are really bad cards, and the first game we played with moneylender in the supply, she opened with moneylender, so I think she does understand that coppers are bad.  She did have a little trouble understanding how mine and remodel are different, and tried to pull a mine (put the upgraded card into your hand) with a remodel.  She briefly called me a cheater until I calmly read the text from both cards and then she just kind of gave me a "I hate you" look and carried on.  It's cool.  I get that look from her a lot.

[Octo]

I think we can safely chalk this one up in the "wins" column.

[jsh357]

Yeah, the difficulty in explaining to people where to put their in-play/discard/durations is one of those things you just don't see online, but eventually they get it.  It varies from person to person. 

[ConMan]

I think we can safely chalk this one up in the "wins" column.

Definitely sounds like it. And sounds like she's starting to think in the right general direction about strategy, too. She doesn't want to discuss her thought processes during the game, but is she interested in between-game strategy discussion?

[jotheonah]

It was two or three games of Base Dominion in before my friend who was teaching me the game casually mentioned that Mine has an "in hand" clause. "Oh, you didn't know? That explains why you were losing that last game so bad."

[Octo]

Really? Because it's not optional, I make sure people take it in hand, otherwise the rules of the game are being broken. But on top of that I'm aware that it's a subtle distinction in the rules that's easy to miss as a beginner and so am careful to point it out. That sounds a bit underhand from your mate to me :/

[Toolshed113]

You guys with wives that are into dominion are lucky... My girlfriend has zero interest in strategy games. She's the type that goes to the casino and prefers to play the games that are total luck (slots, video poker) rather than any table games with a learning curve. She was nice enough to play Citadels with me once or twice and I think she even may have enjoyed it. I still can't get her to try dominion though...

[aaron0013]

I agree that we should not be breaking the rules when teaching beginners, but there are a couple things that I don't push as much as other rules. The main thing that I will let slip is the deck/discard placement. I will tell them the proper placement when explaining the rules, but won't keep nagging them about it. The reason is, some of them are used to playing games with the deck right beside discard, and they just feel more comfortable that way. What do I care as long as they don't get them mixed around?(I always make sure their discard is face up) maybe it is more important than I think, but it seems better to let them have fun doing their thing than to spoil it with constant reminding.

[Kuildeous]

Really? Because it's not optional, I make sure people take it in hand, otherwise the rules of the game are being broken. But on top of that I'm aware that it's a subtle distinction in the rules that's easy to miss as a beginner and so am careful to point it out. That sounds a bit underhand from your mate to me :/

Yeah, that raises suspicion in me too. I don't like it when someone teaches a game and doesn't mention a rule until it comes up that happens to benefit him.

That makes me hyper-aware when I'm explaining rules. I don't want to be accused of withholding information until it helps me.

Although, it sounds like your friend may have just been focused on his own game and wasn't paying attention to the newbie playing Mine wrong. It might not be a conscious effort to win. He just needed to pay more attention to the newbies, which can be difficult if he's not very experienced.

But with new players, I get almost obsessive with making sure they do everything correctly. I have them play their treasures, so that they can make use of their resources. Often, I'll see someone play a Militia and then say, "With my three, I buy a Silver." When I make them play their treasures, I can point out, "You have three Coppers, but your Militia gives +$2." You can't rely on newbies to play their cards optimally—otherwise they likely wouldn't be newbies. And there are other nuances to point out: Mine, Explorer, and Torturer give cards to the hand; Duration cards don't get discarded the turn that they're played; and Minion being played for $2 means that certain reaction cards can still be played. 

It's simply responsible to remind new players of these nuances. They're relying on you to explain the rules, and Dominion has several exceptions to keep track of.

Really, it's interesting to consider the brain power needed to master (or even dabble) in Dominion. You know (soon) what 200 different cards do, and you also know several pairings between those 200 cards and even some more complex interactions like three- or four-card combos.

[Duchess Ninja]

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent way to condition players to use duration cards correctly. Our group uses the "tap" method from Magic (turn sideways) because most of us have played that for years. However, teaching players who don't have that background is difficult, at least in my experience. So now I use small sticky-notes. When a new player plays one, have him/her put a sticky-note on it. At the end of the turn, don't clean up any stickied cards, and "tap" them. At the beginning of the next turn, remove the stickies. You can also use things like coins, dice, etc..., but a sticky is really on there, and won't get knocked off by a random bump.

Putting the cards in another area is awesome if you have plenty of room, but we often play three or four player on a standard card table, so that is not an option with 16+ kindgom cards and four player areas.

[jotheonah]

I'm sure my friend wasn't doing it on purpose, but he also wasn't too broken up when he found out. He's the guy who always plays Chaotic-Evil in our D&D games. The Belkar. You know the type.

[aaron0013]

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent way to condition players to use duration cards.  At the end of the turn, don't clean up any stickied cards, and "tap" them. At the beginning of the next turn, remove the stickies. You can also use things like coins, dice, etc..., but a sticky is really on there, and won't get knocked off by a random bump.

Just wanted to say that if I put a sticky on a card or anything else, I'm going to get as far away as I can before it blows. It might be good conditioning for new players, but I don't think tapping them is the best idea.

Sorry.....