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Author Topic: Pronunciations and plurals  (Read 27121 times)

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Polk5440

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2012, 01:05:15 pm »
0

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).
You're spouting nonsense.

Wasn't "filthy, rotten ruinses. We hates them" a reference to Gollum's speeches in the LOTR? ("Filthy little hobbitses....Sneaky little hobbitses....We hates them!") I was jokingly referring to your reference of that.... I did not mean to be offensive or spouting nonsense.

Quote
The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

I agree. I do not find this suspicious. I was just thinking that "theme" might be a reason why the printed words on the cards might NOT be read as proper nouns but as common nouns by some players even if you mean them to be read as proper nouns.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 01:06:38 pm by Polk5440 »
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2012, 02:46:49 pm »
0

Wasn't "filthy, rotten ruinses. We hates them" a reference to Gollum's speeches in the LOTR? ("Filthy little hobbitses....Sneaky little hobbitses....We hates them!") I was jokingly referring to your reference of that.... I did not mean to be offensive or spouting nonsense.
Yes, how could it not be?

I agree. I do not find this suspicious. I was just thinking that "theme" might be a reason why the printed words on the cards might NOT be read as proper nouns but as common nouns by some players even if you mean them to be read as proper nouns.
It's nice that you are just innocently being hilarious. Everyone thinks of City as city, not as a proper noun. No-one says "my deck has four Citys." How much they care about theme has nothing to do with it; "City" is not something they think of as proper.
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cluckyb

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2012, 05:17:10 pm »
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The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).
You're spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

Outside of edited material, whatever people do is "correct" - no-one is the arbiter of correct English.

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2012, 05:33:33 pm »
+2

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.
If you want to know what a style guide says to do, check a style guide! It doesn't seem worthwhile for me to try to make it clear to you what style guides say, when after all they are not all identical.

I have already indicated that I am not a language prescriptivist. Try to communicate clearly, that's what matters.
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ashersky

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2012, 06:32:40 pm »
0

The fact that Donald views Ratses and Ruinses as the correct plurals just means he's not getting into what little theme there is when he plays (or he's secretly role playing as Gollum and Dominion is really set in Middle Earth).
You're spouting nonsense.

The fact that I view Ruinses as "correct" means I know what style guides tell you to do when pluralizing proper nouns. If you find this suspicious, consider the expression, "keeping up with the Joneses."

Outside of edited material, whatever people do is "correct" - no-one is the arbiter of correct English.

So does that mean its proper to say "Ruins isa type of basic cards in Dark Ages. They are weak and undesirable Action cards costing 0 that are typically added to a player's deck as a penalty or attack" (as opposed to are)? I'm not sure what proper nouns have to do with it. If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses. "Jones" is singular, ("Jones isn't feeling well so you need to work late"), so if Jones has a family, you have a bunch of Joneses. If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2012, 07:40:27 pm »
0

If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.
Somehow I feel the need to explain this stuff even after saying how pointless that would be. That is what the internet does to a man.

In the sentence "Ruined Village is a Ruins," "Ruins" is singular. You can tell from the "a!" Note despite being a former computer programmer that I put the exclamation point inside the quotes. If you then wanted to say what Ruined Village and Abandoned Mine collectively are, that would be "Ruinses." As usual despite being pretty sure of this I used the internet to verify it before using the word in the preview. If you aren't reading this from a print-out then this power is available to you as well.

If you see the movie Holes, did you see two movies? When you say "I saw Holes," that's shorthand for "I saw the movie named Holes." It's one movie; Holes in this context is singular. The fact that the movie's name is also a plural English word doesn't change that. If the director made another movie very similar to Holes, and then a third, then you might say, "man, I wish he would stop making so many Holeses."

The entire point to me saying Ruinses in the first place, in the preview and wherever afterwards, was because, it's funny. It's funny that the plural is Ruinses, because no-one would actually say Ruinses, and they would sound like Gollum (a character created by a linguist) if they did. Death Cart doesn't say Ruinses, because it would look weird; we don't have someone forcing us to adhere to a particular style guide, although Jay decided to go light on contractions (I disagree there) and to say "he" for indeterminate gender (I prefer "they" like a normal person).

It has not been so common to pluralize proper nouns in the past, but it comes up a lot with card games with named cards. You have this name, it's some ordinary real thing, but it's a name, it's proper, and the style guides say your Magic deck has four City of Brasses and four Llanowar Elveses, not four Cities of Brass and four Llanowar Elves. Normal people say Cities and Elves and that may well be the wave of the future. If you see a newspaper article telling you how many times Madonna won a Grammy though, they will call them Grammys, not Grammies; once it's proper they just add -s or -es.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2012, 08:39:01 pm »
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Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".
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aaron0013

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2012, 09:12:21 pm »
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For formal writing, I prefer going light on contractions and saying "he" for "they". In my 6 odd years of grammar study, that is the way I have always been taught.
But then comes the question "is Dominion card language intended to be formal?" I think it has an element of that, but not completely strict on such areas as Ruinses. I like the way it ended up, Donald.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2012, 12:16:33 am »
+1

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).
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aaron0013

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2012, 09:18:09 am »
0

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).
Just say, "The Mustang is a type of Ford." Sometimes it is just better to change the sentence around. 
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PSGarak

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2012, 12:00:08 pm »
0

If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses.
Virus is a funny example, because it's a Latin word that we don't know the proper Latin plural for. It's a rare word that has some odd declension forms, so we're not sure if it's second or fourth declension, or just flat-out irregular. Theories for the proper plural include viri, virii, virui, virus, and virus (with a different-sounding u). Some people have advocated using various of these as the "proper" English plural as well, but since they're all historically suspect I recommend the English plural.
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Axxle

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2012, 01:04:53 pm »
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One Fish.
Two Fish.
Red fish, blue fish
English is a crazy language.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2012, 01:15:55 pm »
+3

One Fish.
Two Fish.
Red fish, blue fish
English is a crazy language.

Fishes is a thing.

Also, the plural of moose is meese, and box is boxen.
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cluckyb

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2012, 04:50:09 pm »
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If Ruinses is proper, then Ruins must be singular as well.
Somehow I feel the need to explain this stuff even after saying how pointless that would be. That is what the internet does to a man.

In the sentence "Ruined Village is a Ruins," "Ruins" is singular. You can tell from the "a!" Note despite being a former computer programmer that I put the exclamation point inside the quotes. If you then wanted to say what Ruined Village and Abandoned Mine collectively are, that would be "Ruinses." As usual despite being pretty sure of this I used the internet to verify it before using the word in the preview. If you aren't reading this from a print-out then this power is available to you as well.

If you see the movie Holes, did you see two movies? When you say "I saw Holes," that's shorthand for "I saw the movie named Holes." It's one movie; Holes in this context is singular. The fact that the movie's name is also a plural English word doesn't change that. If the director made another movie very similar to Holes, and then a third, then you might say, "man, I wish he would stop making so many Holeses."

The entire point to me saying Ruinses in the first place, in the preview and wherever afterwards, was because, it's funny. It's funny that the plural is Ruinses, because no-one would actually say Ruinses, and they would sound like Gollum (a character created by a linguist) if they did. Death Cart doesn't say Ruinses, because it would look weird; we don't have someone forcing us to adhere to a particular style guide, although Jay decided to go light on contractions (I disagree there) and to say "he" for indeterminate gender (I prefer "they" like a normal person).

It has not been so common to pluralize proper nouns in the past, but it comes up a lot with card games with named cards. You have this name, it's some ordinary real thing, but it's a name, it's proper, and the style guides say your Magic deck has four City of Brasses and four Llanowar Elveses, not four Cities of Brass and four Llanowar Elves. Normal people say Cities and Elves and that may well be the wave of the future. If you see a newspaper article telling you how many times Madonna won a Grammy though, they will call them Grammys, not Grammies; once it's proper they just add -s or -es.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to state that "Ruins" shouldn't be singular. Just pointing out that the -es is added because its singular. All being proper does is help standardize the pluralization so we know its "Ruinses" and not something weird like "Ruini".

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?

If you have one virus and then it breeds you get viruses.
Virus is a funny example, because it's a Latin word that we don't know the proper Latin plural for. It's a rare word that has some odd declension forms, so we're not sure if it's second or fourth declension, or just flat-out irregular. Theories for the proper plural include viri, virii, virui, virus, and virus (with a different-sounding u). Some people have advocated using various of these as the "proper" English plural as well, but since they're all historically suspect I recommend the English plural.

Its not just virus though. John considered the pluses and minuses of putting lenses in his glasses. Yeah there are examples of -s words not getting the -es (fungi) but the -es is probably the most common.
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2012, 05:09:26 pm »
0

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?
No, the game doesn't have any cards at all called Dutchy.
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cluckyb

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2012, 05:16:30 pm »
0

One last moment of pedantry and then I'll stop annoying you. Using the Grammy example, it would be correct to say that the game has 12 Dutchys, right?
No, the game doesn't have any cards at all called Dutchy.

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant.  :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 05:27:14 pm by cluckyb »
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2012, 06:13:06 pm »
0

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant.  :)
It's fine if you want to say that Grammys as an example wasn't relevant to you personally. It seemed to me like it might help someone out there come to terms with the rules for pluralizing proper nouns, but man it's the internet, maybe I am just screaming at the void here.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2012, 06:22:27 pm »
+3

I would argue that some proper nouns are more Proper than others.  For example, "Grammy" as a word is pretty much set in stone - you can't say "Grammies," because Grammy is short for Grammy Award.  Grammy is an adjective acting as a noun.  Synecdoche!  Whereas with City of Brass, "City" is, on its own, an improper noun with a known plural.  So Cities of Brass would be correct, until such a time as "City of Brass" just gets turned into one word, like, City'obrass or something.  Then you could say City'obrasses.

Also, the Internet wanted to correct "synecdoche" to "Indochinese."
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2012, 06:33:01 pm »
0

... not sure how I never realized there wasn't a t. Still see them referred to as Duchies more often than Duchys and wasn't sure if that's because people use the 'wrong' name, because cards themselves aren't proper, or because your Grammys example was silly and not actually relevant.  :)
It's fine if you want to say that Grammys as an example wasn't relevant to you personally. It seemed to me like it might help someone out there come to terms with the rules for pluralizing proper nouns, but man it's the internet, maybe I am just screaming at the void here.

I understand the rules for pluralizing proper nouns. The question I'm sure on is what kind of noun the card names are. The impression I get is that all the card names are technically singular proper nouns. In that case (by your Grammys example) Duchys, Laboratorys, and Embassys are all correct (in the same sense that "Ratses" is correct) unless there is another aspect I'm missing. (please don't give another snarky response. or do, I don't actually really care. I'm just done trying to get this point across)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2012, 06:54:35 pm »
0

Yes, "Ruins is a type of card..." is a correct way to say it.  Just like "Victory is a type of card" or "Action is a type of card" would be correct.  HOWEVER, "Ruins are a type of card..." could also work, given you could be talking about different types of Ruins cards collectively.  At least, that's how I read it.

"Ruins are a type of card" would be incorrect.  The "a" means that "Ruins" is singular in this case, so you need to use "is".

So "Mustangs are a type of Ford" is incorrect?  I disagree.  The "a" refers to "type" (the object).

Sure, but the "a" refers to "Mustangs" as well.  So your sentence is incorrect, yup.

Consider:

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.
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Donald X.

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2012, 07:06:33 pm »
0

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.
The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2012, 08:37:09 pm »
0

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.
The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.

Yes I know, but I mean "They" to be plural for this example. :P



I am feeling less sure now than before, trying to think of other examples.  I mean, a sentence like "bears are a type of mammal" sounds entirely correct, but I am arguing that it isn't.

I think I am indeed mixing something up.  Ehhhh.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2012, 10:32:07 pm »
0

What you're mixing up, eHalcyon, is that in "They are a friend of mine" there is more than one friend. However, in "Bears are a type of mammal" only one type (of mammal) is mentioned.
Therefore, if we consider they to be plural, it would be proper to say "They are friends of mine."
However, "Bears are types of mammals" is incorrect, because bears only represent a single type of mammal.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2012, 03:40:41 am »
0

What you're mixing up, eHalcyon, is that in "They are a friend of mine" there is more than one friend. However, in "Bears are a type of mammal" only one type (of mammal) is mentioned.
Therefore, if we consider they to be plural, it would be proper to say "They are friends of mine."
However, "Bears are types of mammals" is incorrect, because bears only represent a single type of mammal.

This is my point with Mustangs.  I think the thread got lost here, because it rounded back to me being correct, which I like.

I think my argument is you could say "Bears IS a type of animal" because "bears" is being used as a collective singular instead of plural in that instance.  I would agree it doesn't sound great, and we would say that normally, it is grammatically correct in someone's dissertation on ursine studies somewhere.
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Re: Pronunciations and plurals
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2012, 11:07:47 am »
+1

They are a friend of mine.

By your argument, this sentence is correct.
The Chicago Manual of Style briefly allowed singular they, but relented, though it's been in use for hundreds of years.

Anyway for a normal English speaker, that sentence is fine. It's not "they *is* a friend of mine." "They" can mean a single person of unknown gender.

Yes I know, but I mean "They" to be plural for this example. :P



I am feeling less sure now than before, trying to think of other examples.  I mean, a sentence like "bears are a type of mammal" sounds entirely correct, but I am arguing that it isn't.

I think I am indeed mixing something up.  Ehhhh.

And this is why the French have the pronoun "on."
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