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[Mister Alex]

I had a fun game the other day where I was Remodelling Rats into Border Villages + Market/Duchy + 1 card.   That was nice.

Basically I think Rats are best when there's something else that can trash them while taking their cost into account (Salvager, Apprentice, Remodel etc).  Their main power seems to be replacing a useless 0-cost card with an almost-useless 4-cost card.

[mischiefmaker]

Mister Alex hits the nail on the head: so far I haven't found any use for Rats (except as a comical, thematically flavorful, hey-look-my-whole-deck-got-eaten-by-Rats! thing) that does not involve trash-for-benefit.

I disagree that Rats shines in a Curse/Ruins-heavy game. It's wrong to think of Rats as a trasher -- better to think of them as replacing your junk (Curse/Ruins/Copper/Shelter) with Rats. If you don't have a good reason to want Rats instead of those cards, and I think in most decks Copper and Ruins will be preferable to Rats, you're better off just trying to deal with the junk without spending the opportunity cost of buying your first Rats.

I experimented a bit with a couple of combos: Rats/Salvager (open Rats/Silver, BM with 2 Salvagers from there) clocked in around 14-15 turns to 4 provinces. It's not the fastest deck in the world but it'll be reasonably competitive, especially when you consider that Salvager gives you some endgame flexibility. I only played 4-5 games though so take the sample size with a grain of salt.

Rats/Death Cart is quite a bit slower, and has a very high variance. I got to 4 provinces in one game in 16 turns, and the next game took 20+ before I gave up. However, if you add in some filtering, you've got yourself a legitimate deck. Both Rats/Death Cart/Cartographer and Rats/Death Cart/Lookout were on par with Smithy-BM, averaging 14-15 turns to 4 provinces. I didn't test them but I have good confidence that Cellar and Warehouse will be good pairings here as well.

[Dulkal]

Mister Alex hits the nail on the head: so far I haven't found any use for Rats (except as a comical, thematically flavorful, hey-look-my-whole-deck-got-eaten-by-Rats! thing) that does not involve trash-for-benefit.

Scrying pool?

[ednever]

I played the recommended dark ages+alchemy set last night. Rats dominated.

I opened rats+market square.
Rats started multiplying immediately and eating my copper and shelters.
I discarded my ms a few times for gold.
Second time through the deck I grabbed a armory and used it to top deck a potion. (I ended up grabbing 3-4 potions I think. I also picked up a few wandering minstrels with it)
Potions bought me scrying pools and 9 vineyards (it was a 3p game)

More than a few times I didn't play a rats. More than a few times a rats ate a gold or a potion.
(I also grabbed 2 apprentice at some points but I only used one once to eat a rats. It definitely wasn't necessary)

Final deck composition was:
19 rats, 18 other action cards, 9 vineyards, 2 potions, 2 golds - 108 vp.


Now: pretty sure Donald designed the set to be rats friendly. And my pile driving of rats was uncontested. The pools and the vineyards were the key rays support, and armory and market square both helped a LOT (the deck had no economy except the potions gained by armory and the golds gained by market square)

That said, pretty sure there is a rats+vineyards combo there. Needs a tiny amount of support to be dominant on many boards. Just getting all the rats makes the vineyards worth 6vp. And you can do that with a single rats purchase.

Ef

[dondon151]

And to think, normally one wouldn't want rats to be running amok in their vineyards...

[jomini]

Rats have several basic uses:
1. The can increase the value of the cards in your deck, albeit making them fairly useless to play. This is actually very strong with the right scaling TfB's. Bishop, Apprentice, Salvager, Remodel, Forge, etc. are great with rats if you have something that can use them.
2. They trash any type of card and give you an action. This means that cards that can only trash actions (like grave robber) or that can only trash non-treasures (like Hermit) can use rats as an intermediate to eat up copper & then pitch the rats for something better (e.g. villages or silver).
3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes. This means 2 piles gone with you up on VP with a strong goons engine can end by just having two rats in hand and then playing out the other 18. You can also auto-pile out the rats with a VP lead based wholly on dual victory-action cards (e.g. great hall/nobles) already in play or with something hiding the VP cards from hand (i.e. Island, Nv, Haven). Another option is to just win by curses + whatever you can buy from your action cash as you pile out.


For instance, develop/rats is pretty decent. Say you have develop/rats/market out. You can rats away your estates and some coppers, and then play a develop on a rats. You auto-draw the silver and leave a market on top for next hand. If you have a strong 3/5 (e.g. Fishing village/rabble) you can hammer away at the rat's and build a strong engine with no other trashing. Because the number of rats in your deck grows exponentially, you are virtually all ways assured of hitting rats/develop and gaining a nice set of 5/3 cards. I haven't tried it yet, but I think you might be able to rush rats/develop/duchy (buying copper to rats) or better rats/develop/duchy/duke. Develop/rats/Igg may also be fun & work.

Another shot is to give out the curses while your opponent gives out ruins, empty both of those, rats out, and then buy an estate or duchy off a mountebank, fishing villages, festivals, or whatever.

[LastFootnote]

For instance, develop/rats is pretty decent. Say you have develop/rats/market out. You can rats away your estates and some coppers, and then play a develop on a rats. You auto-draw the silver and leave a market on top for next hand.

It doesn't quite work that way. When Develop trashes Rats, you draw a card immediately. Only then do you gain the two cards from Develop.

[dondon151]

3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes.

Rats gets the +1 Card before it gains another Rats.

[Graystripe77]

Rats/Procession -> Watchtower? Or, just Rats/Watchtower?

[jomini]

3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes.

Rats gets the +1 Card before it gains another Rats.

Yes, this is why I said in the following sentence "by just having two rats in hand". Technically you need to have a rats in hand and a rats in hand or in your deck/discard (and nothing else) when you start playing rats. Two rats will auto-pile if you keep playing them. Also, if you have some strong reliable draw setup, you can gain as many rats as you want (just don't play them once you draw them). For instance if you get Scrying pool/remake/scheme you can grab 10 cards to turn into an engine (e.g. upgrade rats -> festival/market).

It doesn't quite work that way. When Develop trashes Rats, you draw a card immediately. Only then do you gain the two cards from Develop.

Ahh, thank you. That works even better for many things then. Develop/rats and something like village/Cr or Fv/Torturer gets even better.

[Squeek]

Trader + rats would seem to be a strong combo.  You'd clear the silver pile rather quickly.

[Scissors61]

I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

[rinkworks]

I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.

[Scissors61]

I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.

Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

[eHalcyon]

I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.

Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

But if you hadn't had that Rats, you would have drawn the Gold in the first place, no?

[Scissors61]

I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.

Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

But if you hadn't had that Rats, you would have drawn the Gold in the first place, no?

...*facepalm* Hindsight is 20/20.

[brokoli]

Hey, I have a powerful combo for you ! Rats-Jack !
Rats eat coppers and Jack trashes the estates and rats !

(and then you realize that double-jack will just kill this "combo")

[Brando Commando]

I pulled off a win with a little Rats help the other day. The set-up included Village, Develop, Rats, Procession, Graverobber, Hunting Party and Expand.  I think I opened Develop/Rats and never bought another Rats but must have gained four or five over the course of the game.

I won, probably because of that early Develop, which I used on the Rats to gain Village and Graverobber. I only remember one hand where Rats was holding me back -- I didn't want to draw anything for fear I'd have to trash something good. Otherwise, I was able to use the Rats to trash copper/estate or something else to trash the Rats.

So it was useful here, but I had specifically tried to design a kingdom where Rats was viable. I'm not sure I would have gone Rats if even Develop had not been around, since Graverobber and Expand might have been too expensive to halt their proliferation effectively (and since Procession by itself doesn't do anything to slow proliferation even if it makes Rats more effective).

[rinkworks]

I haven't tried Rats/Develop yet, but I'm optimistic that that is a strong strategy under many circumstances.  The problem with Develop is that to make it work, you need to want multiples of cards 2 cost tiers apart, but to give Develop the fuel it needs you need cards at the cost tier in the middle.

So let's say you want $3 and $5 cards, which is probably the most common pair of targets.  That means you have to buy $4 cards to allow Develop to get them for you, and getting a $4 card necessarily means NOT getting one of the $3 cards you want in the first place.

Rats solves this problem by quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.

[Polk5440]

Rats solves this problem by, quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.

That seems to be the hidden power of Rats: the fact they cost $4. We played some games IRL and I was completely confused on how Rats help you out -- until I saw the pirateshipeconomist use them in a very successful Remodeling chain. Then I got it. Rats are great as an intermediate step to something better.

Then in another game I tried to do a similar thing using Rats as Apprentice fodder (both these games were recommended sets in the DA instruction book). I didn't buy enough Apprentices soon enough and Rats overran my deck.... I guess I didn't really get it yet.

[Insomniac]

Rats solves this problem by, quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.

That seems to be the hidden power of Rats: the fact they cost $4. We played some games IRL and I was completely confused on how Rats help you out -- until I saw the pirateshipeconomist use them in a very successful Remodeling chain. Then I got it. Rats are great as an intermediate step to something better.

Then in another game I tried to do a similar thing using Rats as Apprentice fodder (both these games were recommended sets in the DA instruction book). I didn't buy enough Apprentices soon enough and Rats overran my deck.... I guess I didn't really get it yet.

They are good with death cart as well.

[Dulkal]

They are good with death cart as well.

I thought that too, but in practice, it turned out way too slow when I tried it. Getting two ruins when you buy DC gets you a deck that is junked enough that you rarely get to trigger more than one death cart, which doesn't get you that much buying power for the effort invested.

[mischiefmaker]

As noted above, Rats/Death Cart by itself is too slow and too unreliable, but it works nicely with a little filtering (Warehouse, Cellar, Lookout, Cartographer, etc.).

[Pez]

Everyone has pointed out the importance of another trashing card for almost every use of Rats. But the other drawback of playing a rats is decreasing your hand size. But this isn't a problem if you have a fortress. Fortress/Rats/Some Other TFB is awesome. If you have enough fortresses, you don't have to worry about trashing cards that you want to keep. That can help you cycle your deck pretty fast and since you don't have to worry about playing the rats you can get rid of the cards that take up space in your deck such as shelters and coppers, and turn them into rats which will often be harmless cantrips. Then you can slowly widdle the # of rats down by playing your TFB.

[brokoli]

Rats + Junk Dealer is decent, even if probably rarely the best strategy on the board.